Is there such a thing as a FWD (front-wheel drive) sportscar?

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by bhtooefr

transio: I think the problem is, you're thinking in reverse.

....

See where I'm going? If you can provide an answer for any of those questions, the answer to "do those exist" is yes.

Exactly. They exist in unique instances, that's obvious and not even worthy of discussion. Therefore my deviation from the initial thread. Please don't confuse my off-topic debaite with the title of the thread.

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Elanlover:

You, dapinky, and LotusElanM100 have all crossed the line with personal attacks. If you were on any of the forums I moderate, I'd definitely ban you.

Uhmm..............Phlyp, if we are all guilty of personal attacks, intended or otherwise, then I don't think you can claim to be absolved. Many of the things you've said can easily be taken as personal attacks and I'm not talking about those comments directed at a car model either.

Suffice it to say many people who have posted here, myself and you included, would probably, if given the chance, do a bit of wordsmithing if they could.

You fogot about AV8NDOC too

And by the way, threatening to petition to have us banned isn't very sporting now is it? Just because you don't like what we say doesn't mean we don't have a right to say it. This is the "Forum for Lotus cars in North America" afterall. I could just as easily justify the need to ban you based on many of your retorts. And your motivation for even starting, not just this poll, but another similar one. You don't see any of "us" pulling that.

I'll go back to what I've said 3 times now in attempts to lower the temperature in here. Everyone's said things they probably could have said better. You too.

Now, back to the discussion about why FWD sportscars are the ONLY sportscar platform in the world worth driving....................oh wait, that was in the M100 forum

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

I don't understand why otherwise friendly, intellengent people that share a common interest in Lotus cars can't get along better and agree that some people have differing views.

Ok. I give I'm not that proud that I can't be the first to admit guilt.

I don't think anyone ever intended for this to get to the place its at now.

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

threatening to petition to have us banned isn't very sporting now is it? Just because you don't like what we say doesn't mean we don't have a right to say it.

No, but because personal attacks and one-trick-ponies are against the rules (and additionally, inappropriate) you should refrain from insults and such. Personally, I think both sides have stooped pretty low. Phlyp got your goat, and he knows it, and he keeps fishing for more, and you guys are making easy prey of yourselves. You should all (Phlyp included) let it go and apologize and move on. No reason to get that worked up over a silly discussion about a car.

[PhlypSide]

MattG & Tim:

Thanks for checking back in with us

I'm sorry for responding to personal attacks with more of the same. I'm done for now and will let the polls do their work and others chime in as they like.

Elanlover:

You said it first, my retorts. Which wouldn't have been required if I hadn't been singled out with personal attacks to begin with

Most of you attackers have join dates of Dec 2006 and don't even own an Elise/Exige, I think you're prime candidates for "trolldom" but this is not my domain

I don't care if you have differing opinions from my own, heck why would I have offered a choice in the poll if I didn't want to know? I do care that attacking the person, not the argument is a lame and out of line tactic that you and others have used.

Thanks to you the M100 (which before these threads I was neutral on) has one less (very vocal) fan.

[babak]

We've been watching this thread and there really had been a hope that it would police itself and return to a debate level. I'm going to ask all of you to take one step back, take a breath and drop the jabs at each other, from all sides. I'd like to think that as car zealots, and yes we are all that in some level, we can still return to a civil discussion.

Granted that there is a perception of intolerance of the M100. As a previous 944 owner (two of them) on 911 dominated boards I truly understand why they would feel that way. However, that is far from the case. Consider this an official welcome to the board and an invitation to hang around and join the discussion.
As to one trick ponies. We all had a low post count at some point or another. Yes many have joined the board and this thread recently, but is it possible that they did so since they now have something here that interests them?
Having said that I'll repeat myself. Take a step back and a deep breath, lets "be excellent to each other and party on dudes."

ps. I seriously considered editing the inflammatory comments, but I'll leave them be and ask the authors to police their own posts.

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by zr1fan

If your definition of sports car precludes FWD cars, hey it's your definition. Is there anything in your definition about being able to perform at a certain level? I mean, does actual performance matter, or just the notion or possibility of performance?

Just browsing through the thread, found this post that I hadn't replied to. Performance level doesn't classify a vehicle. Attributes classify a vehicle. This goes back to the "Is there such thing as a 4-door sports car?" thread. No. "Sports cars" are 2-door, 2-seat, (RWD?) roadsters (and coupes?) designed specifically for the purpose of driving enthusiasm and/or competitive driving. The "RWD" part is grayed by the m100 Elan, because it's a true sports car with FWD. Prior to the m100, I would have voted "hell no" in this thread, because it's impossible to consider that anyone would design, from scratch, a vehicle for competition based upon a technology that is inately inferior for competition. Even the marketing language of Lotus proves that they chose FWD for reasons other than competitive advantage. But it's still a sports car. Quite possibly the last FWD sports car ever.

The instance is on-par with, say, designing a modern sports car with a solid axle and leaf springs (please don't bring up the Vette... it's got an innovative IRS and non-traditional composite springs). Sure, you COULD do it, but with modern engineering knowledge, we know that a solid axle creates serious detriments in handling that decrease the inate competitive ability of the vehicle. Still, if the Elise were designed with a solid rear-axle and leaf springs, and had its suspension tuned for as much performance as it could handle, we'd still consider it a sports car.

-------------------------------------

So... I guess what I'm saying is that a FWD sports car can exist, but FWD is not a "sport configuration" for a vehicle. In the same sense, a 4-door GT car can exist (e.g. RX-8), but 4-doors are not a sport configuration.

-------------------------------------

EDIT: By the way, I'm going to love the discussions that arise when the Porshe Panamera gets built.

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by transio

No, but because personal attacks and one-trick-ponies are against the rules (and additionally, inappropriate) you should refrain from insults and such. Personally, I think both sides have stooped pretty low. Phlyp got your goat, and he knows it, and he keeps fishing for more, and you guys are making easy prey of yourselves. You should all (Phlyp included) let it go and apologize and move on. No reason to get that worked up over a silly discussion about a car.

I won't comment on your one-trick ony remark as babak said it best and besides, its up to 39 tricks now. But............we did make it easy for Phlyp to reel us in didn't we.

I'd be the first to confess that M100 owners are fanatical about their cars and some maybe just a bit defensive. The M100 never got its just due so we've been busy trying to make up for that ourselves over the last 15 years. Its so much fun to own and we love being an elder brother (teenager realy) in the Lotus family.

babak, thanks for the welcome. That was a great post you made.

Ok, what else can we fight.....I mean argue......I mean debate about???

[Toad]

Ok, what else can we fight.....I mean argue......I mean debate about???

How about the good old Elise S1 vs. S2 debate?

[AV8NDOC]

lovely discussion for sure

hopefully we are all a bit more educated now ?

some people can only see things THEIR way -- I coud go off on that but it would be completely unnecessary [yet interesting]

interesting that some of these guys have (or may have) Elises -- they seem more like Porsche guys to me!

thank goodness Mazda chose to make one of the best selling sports cars of all time RWD, or else the Miata wouldn't be considered a sports car in their opinion.

[babak]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Ok, what else can we fight.....I mean argue......I mean debate about???

Dot spec or after market blinker fluid?

[LotusElanM100]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

BTW, my opinion is not wrong. I'm not the only one of this opinion either, this is why you're wrong.

No, I was never talking about your "opinin" I am talking about your facts that you state and claim are true, your fact are just plain wrong and I am sorry you do not like that but maybe you are the one that should be band....from ever owning a Lotus of any kind

[mini63]

Can we all agree to this?:

(1) The M100 is a sports car and it is also FWD.

(2) Not other FWD car came up in this thread as a legitimate example as a sports car (perhaps some AWD cars were proposed but no other FWD cars).

(3) GENERALLY SPEAKING (I said GENERALLY, meaning that there are exceptions to every rule), sports cars are RWD.

[Elanlover]

......turns on head cooling system causing ensuing politeness...........

Originally Posted by transio

Prior to the m100, I would have voted "hell no" in this thread, because it's impossible to consider that anyone would design, from scratch, a vehicle for competition based upon a technology that is inately inferior for competition. Even the marketing language of Lotus proves that they chose FWD for reasons other than competitive advantage. But it's still a sports car. Quite possibly the last FWD sports car ever.

Ok, let me tell you what I think about this. I say "think" because its my opinion only and, while I could probably dig up some facts that might support this position, they couldn't definitively prove it. Its not because its innately inferior though.

Why aren't there any more FWD sportscars?

1. Lotus did a LOT of work to make this one. A huge amount of groundbreaking technology to break the mold. Much of this was around suspension work to eliminate the problems normally associated with FWD.

Name another car manufacturer then or now that knows as much about suspension design as Lotus does. I don't think many could have figured it out.

2. If they could have figured it out, the cost to do so would have been much higher than Lotus' cost to do it.

3. FWD just wasn't considered a sportscar platform. Call it miseducated, uniformed, unelightened, bull headed or whatever but that was the mentality then (and today too it seems). In the late 80's, everything FWD was small, compact, cheap and probably Japanese. Everything a sportscar isn't (forgive the japanese part). Most manufacturers would never take the risk Lotus did when it built the M100 and most will not do so today when well developed, relatively cheap AWD systems are available.

Lotus figured out that a car could be FWD and still be everything a sportscar was supposed to be. They built one and it was great. It was the worst selling car in Lotus history (that just makes it RARE in today's car wolrd......hehehe). All kinds of reasons why but performance was never one of them.

Originally Posted by transio

So... I guess what I'm saying is that a FWD sports car can exist, but FWD is not a "sport configuration" for a vehicle. In the same sense, a 4-door GT car can exist (e.g. RX-8), but 4-doors are not a sport configuratton.

Ok, let's not get angry at each other here but I'll disagree. FWD is a sportscar config. Lotus proved it is. It just needs to be built differently to achieve the effect. You can't say that RWD cars are all sportscars. They, too, have to be built properly to achieve the effect. I appreciate that FWD is not what people have come to expect in a sportscar but that doesn't mean it isn't a platform for building a great one.


................lowers pressure in head cooling system but keeps it in idle............

[AV8NDOC]

didn't the Esprit only sell like 8 units one year recently in the US as it limps along . . . ?

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by LotusElanM100

No, I was never talking about your "opinin" I am talking about your facts that you state and claim are true, your fact are just plain wrong and I am sorry you do not like that but maybe you are the one that should be band....from ever owning a Lotus of any kind

The rest of us have stopped with these attacks, why are you continuing? I'm not going to even ask what you are confusing for facts Frankly I don't care.

I'll help make your wish (partly) true: I'll never buy a Lotus Elan M100

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by mini63

Can we all agree to this?:

(1) The M100 is a sports car and it is also FWD.

(2) Not other FWD car came up in this thread as a legitimate example as a sports car (perhaps some AWD cars were proposed but no other FWD cars).

(3) GENERALLY SPEAKING (I said GENERALLY, meaning that there are exceptions to every rule), sports cars are RWD.

Agree to #1

Not sure about #2. There may be other FWD cars that someone would put forth as possibles. The advantage we have on this forum in promoting the M100 is that its a Lotus and we are on a Lotus forum. If Lotus says it is then its hard for anyone here to tell them they are wrong.

My only thought is that on the Subaru forum they may talk about their FWD car that Subaru says is a sportscar and no one would argue about that there. There's no one to defend them here although I am of the opinion that few if any other FWD cars could claim to be real sportscars. Not because of the platform, just because no one's built one like Lotus did.

Don't agree with 3. I'm a big fan of AWD. I'd say AWD makes a better platform than FWD or RWD for sportscars. Better doesn't mean the others can't be sportscars though. There are just some advantages to AWD that i happen to like over either of the other 2.

I would agree with the following though:

Most sportscars that we see on the road today are RWD. AWD sportscars may be the sportscar of the future but we don't see too many of them yet. FWD make great sportscars too but we don't see many because few manufacturers stepped up to the plate to build them and we're not likely to see many FWD sportscars in the future.

That make any sense?

[mini63]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

I would agree with the following though:

Most sportscars that we see on the road today are RWD. AWD sportscars may be the sportscar of the future but we don't see too many of them yet. FWD cars would have made great sportscars had more manufacturers stepped up to the plate and built them but we're not likely to see many FWD sportscars in the future.

That make any sense?

I would say that this makes sense - though you seem to believe that manufacturers do not make more FWD sports cars because of the perceived misconceptions about the FWD layout...and I would say that manufacturers don't build more FWD sports cars because the manufacturers, engineers and designers have come to the conclusion, over years and years of R & D, that RWD is a better platform for a "sporting", performance car.

I think that if FWD was deemed the way to go for performance cars, manufacturers building cars for F1, Le Mans, ALMS, etc., etc. would be building FWD cars...and they are not.

Again, I do consider the M100 to be a sports car. That is not an issue with me.

[mini63]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

I'd say AWD makes a better platform than FWD or RWD for sportscars. Better doesn't mean the others can't be sportscars though. There are just some advantages to AWD that i happen to like over either of the other 2.

I'd agree 100%...and I absolutely agree that "better doesn't mean the others can't be sportscars." The M100 has, I think, proven that a FWD car can be a sports car.

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Ok, let me tell you what I think about this. I say "think" because its my opinion only ... FWD just wasn't considered a sportscar platform. Call it miseducated, uniformed, unelightened, bull headed or whatever but that was the mentality then (and today too it seems) ... Lotus figured out that a car could be FWD and still be everything a sportscar was supposed to be ... FWD is a sportscar config. Lotus proved it is. It just needs to be built differently to achieve the effect.

You're missing the point. FWD has less maximum potential than RWD, because of its dynamics. Lotus overcame most of the problems with the m100, but that doesn't by any means eliminate the fact that RWD will always have greater potential and competitive advantage than FWD. As an example, Let's say we take a FWD m100 and a RWD MX5 - similar cars in most respects, right? On an unlimited budget, given the ability to change anything but the drivetrain, the Elan will never be able to match the performance of the Miata, simply because the potential of the FWD configuration is inately lower than that of RWD. For that reason, the configuration itself is not "sport". Although Lotus did a fine job in maximizing its potential in the m100, they didn't change that fact, and if you compare the m100 Elan to the S1 Elise, for example (a relatively contemporary Lotus) you can very clearly see it.

I suggest that you try driving an Elise before commenting further.

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Most sportscars that we see on the road today are RWD. AWD sportscars may be the sportscar of the future but we don't see too many of them yet. FWD make great sportscars too but we don't see many because few manufacturers stepped up to the plate to build them and we're not likely to see many FWD sportscars in the future.

Some more misconceptions:

1. RWD make up virtually all sports cars ever. The few AWD sports cars are exotic supercars with too much power to deliver to the pavement with 2 wheels on street tires.
   
   
2. FWD doesn't make a great sports car. (see above)
   
   
3. AWD makes for great traction in high-powered supercars and racing in the wet or on loose terrain, but is somewhat inferior in most dry conditions because there is significantly more unsprung weight, ultimately meaning less usable power delivered to the wheels and greater total vehicle weight.