Is there such a thing as a FWD (front-wheel drive) sportscar?

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by Geordie

You must be really proud to be Japanese.


So what happened to the outstanding RWD handling in this photograph? Looks like the two blokes at the front should have been driving front wheel drive.

Ahhh if only you knew what cars they were let alone which wheels are driven

If you're such an M100 diehard, you should enjoy that Isuzu motor in your car. BTW Isuzu is a Japanese car company, isn't it?

[cjay]

Great to see some much talk about the M100 on Elise talk
They are a fantastic car! They were the best handling FWD in their day and I can't think of a better one.

I sold mine to get the Elise, it was a very sad day

[Westrock]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

When you get a little older you may want to spend less time tweaking and more time behind the wheel of your car You may also want to maintain your warranty and day-to-day driveability. Fortunately for you your car already came with boost. Just imagine the headaches that the original Neon guys had when they were throwing on Hahn RaceCraft kits and whatnot.

Well...maybe...but not for a long time, its just not in my nature to leave things alone. I have to use my hands and do stuff. I started working on this car the very next day after I bought it. Warrenty ain't got nothing on me! Working on the car also makes me feel connected with it. Knowing where all the different vacuum lines go and stuff. Mind you I'm not the kind of person that does a half-ass job and my engine bay looks like a multi-colored birds nest. I take pride in the work I do.

One of the reasons I bought this car was because it already had a turbo. While I have no interest in Neons, I was around when the Honda's first started doing turbo's and that was fun to watch. These guys running Hondata and pretty tubular manifolds never had it so good.

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by Geordie

So what happened to the outstanding RWD handling in this photograph? Looks like the two blokes at the front should have been driving front wheel drive.

Hey Geordie, don't forget the ones in the back too. Looks like a 30 car, RWD pileup to me. They musta saw some FWD sportscars in the parking lot and all tried to run for cover at the same time.

Is that a tow truck I see on the upper level to the left????

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by bhtooefr

A Forester XT is basically a tall Impreza WRX wagon, IIRC.

And who said wagons can't be fast? They're slightly heavier than sedans, yes, but only slightly.

That said, Elanlover's GTGs look a LITTLE bigger.

Heck, ColumbusTDIDrivers (a FWD VW diesel club) puts together as good of a showing as what you "can" bring, and we've only got a few people in the club!

Hey bhtooefr! Never would I say that the wagon couldn't be fast. The wagon has an esteemed history after all. In the 1800's, the good 'ole canvas covered, horse drawn wagon was the fastest ride in town! Had the extra advantage of being able to be flipped (or is that Phylp'd?) on its side for protection from attacking Indians too. And, who could forget the chuck wagon????

But, for a guy like Phlyp to make such a stir over FWD not being sportscar oriented and for claiming to know sooooo much about the true nature of sportscars, blah, blah, blah and then to be seen hanging out with his sportscar posse which includes a wagon master (a "true" sportscar????)...........well, that really seems strange to me.

[bhtooefr]

While I agree with the fact that Phlyp appears to have hypocritical tendencies, I wouldn't say that this is one of them.

I'm out of this thread, the pissing match has gotten... too much piss on everyone.

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Hey bhtooefr! Never would I say that the wagon couldn't be fast. The wagon has an esteemed history after all. In the 1800's, the good 'ole canvas covered, horse drawn wagon was the fastest ride in town! Had the extra advantage of being able to be flipped (or is that Phylp'd?) on its side for protection from attacking Indians too. And, who could forget the chuck wagon????

Idiocy sheer idiocy at its finest.

Originally Posted by Elanlover

But, for a guy like Phlyp to make such a stir over FWD not being sportscar oriented and for claiming to know sooooo much about the true nature of sportscars, blah, blah, blah and then to be seen hanging out with his sportscar posse which includes a wagon master (a "true" sportscar????)...........well, that really seems strange to me.

Oh the Forester isn't a sportscar it's just faster than your pre-Kia That'd be the NOTFWD "posse" LOL.

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by bhtooefr

While I agree with the fact that Phlyp appears to have hypocritical tendencies, I wouldn't say that this is one of them.

I'm out of this thread, the pissing match has gotten... too much piss on everyone.

Ahh, we're not trying to win a pp contest. Just havin' a bit of fun and trying to keep it reasonably civil. This is all mostly in good fun. I'm sure Phlyp loves his car plenty and in the end, isn't that all that matters? Embedded in all this friendly (albeit baiting) banter are some really good questions that at least I truly am interested in knowing.

1. Why does Phlyp really need to put down FWD as a sportscar platform? There's really no need for it that I can see. I luv AWD as a sportscar platform. I own FWD and I don't feel the need to put down RWD. Honestly, I really am curious to know why. I don't see that connection betwee RWD is the most popular platfoem for sportscars today being equivalent to FWD therefore can't be.........

2. Why's he here? He doesn't own an Elise or a Lotus at all. Now, its a public forum and he's got a right to be here. No question about that. I'd never imp,y that he or anyone else shouldn't be here. But, being a Lotus owner and NOT an Elise owner, I'd personally be here for 2 reasons: to learn more and to share in a community in which I have something in common-Lotus! Not to revel in what we don't have in common. Seriously, maybe he needs some info, wants to gain some knowledge, etc. Maybe I can be fortunate enough to help someone out - even him because I don't hold grudges. I'd be thrilled to help him out. I just don't see him asking for help, advice or anything else.

3. Why this thread and poll? If it was born from genuinely good intentions that'd be fine. Everyone gets a chance to learn something new. I have. Lotus turbines???!!!! Wow. More to love about Lotus! But, I just don't think that's the case. If you go back and look at the responses I and others who came to the defense of FWD sportscars (and the M100 specifically) we were all very polite and wanted to share the knowledge we have. Instead of good conversation and/or debate, we basically were tol by certain folks that we were wrong, didn't know what we were talking about, etc. So, we go provide factual evidence of our claims. Again, politely. Now we get slammed and it starts to get a big ugly (unfortunately). Bottom line is that I truly don't understand the point of the post/poll. Was it just to prove a point so someone can feel better about themselves??? I don't know..........

4. Lastly, what's wrong with saying "Hey, I learned today that FWD sportscars do exist, albeit it in small quantities. Now THAT'S interesting. Maybe we can chat about what works and doesn't with them. Whre they have advantages over other platforms and their disadvatages."

I'd be up for that.

Anyway, you're right about one thing. We've had some fun and "some" of us have learned a few things. I've been introduced to a new Lotus community with some pretty knowledgable people. How good is that! But, its time to move on to better things.

Hey Phlyp, I hope you can be more open minded about things in future posts. By the way, we need to get you a new job. That one as a car jockey at a valet parking lot give you way too much time to arrange cars into nice patterms then take pictures.

JUST KIDDING!

EDIT p.s. I have to say that the mods here are really great. You guys understand exactly where to jump in, how long to let it go and when you're needed. As someone who's owned and run a community website of over 1,000 mmebers I can tell you that's not easy to do. Great job!

[PhlypSide]

Don't read too much into the poll or question, just answer it and move on You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder (not placed there by me, but I do find it amusing).

[not a real quote]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

It's because I'm a FWD driver, isn't it?

[/not a real quote]

BTW, I've already said I was starting to think of the M100 as the exception to the rule, but am going to continue putting it down to annoy overzealous types like you

Again if you think I don't own a Lotus, that's awesome I suppose my title phrase on this board is purely fanboi-ism then.

I've got absolutely no need to proclaim to the world what I own, or to use a mere possession as my name

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

1. Why does Phlyp really need to put down FWD as a sportscar platform? There's really no need for it that I can see. I luv AWD as a sportscar platform. I own FWD and I don't feel the need to put down RWD. Honestly, I really am curious to know why. I don't see that connection betwee RWD is the most popular platfoem for sportscars today being equivalent to FWD therefore can't be.........

I don't need to put down FWD cars, that'd be like restating the obvious I wanted to see what sportscar owners thought, and I'm getting their answers (albeit skewed by the hordes of M100 owners you invited to help fight your "fight" LOL!).

That's like putting down a handicapped person, only wait, cars are just things and don't really get "emotionally harmed" if you don't like them, it's the overzealous owners that may get "emotionally harmed" heheh

To me, a FWD car is like a person walking on their hands all day.

[Toad]

Again to reiterate what was mentioned previously, especially Tim Mullen, what killed the M100 stateside where the delays and project/production costs, not the FWD aspect. The initial target was to introduce the car in the late 80's,not '91, with the initial price point of mid 20's. How many affordable convertible 2 seater roadsters where available at that time? Not many.

Also as to its sucess or failure, I believe the M100 was still the top selling Lotus worldwide at that time prior to the Elise some 5 years later. Now 'anticipated sales' on the other hand...

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by brgm100

I believe the M100 was still the top selling Lotus worldwide at that time

True

[Geordie]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Again if you think I don't own a Lotus, that's awesome I suppose my title phrase on this board is purely fanboi-ism then.

I see, you plan to buy an M210 when they come out.

I must admit to being originally confused by the term eleventy, but I now realise that we must have different conventions for incrementing units of ten. In English speaking countries we go eighty .... ninety .... one hundred .... one hundred and ten .... one hundred and twenty and so on whereas you obviously use the term eleventy for 110. I am confused why you are not consistent and use tenty for one hundred but there you go.

Tenty apologies for the misunderstanding, I just need to decipher the term fanboi now!

[dapinky]

Good evening, friends

Oh, how silly this has got. "My gang is bigger than your gang." "My dad can beat your dad"

Phil, of course YOU could bring more people to the party - assuming it was held in USA, then there could only be 550 M100’s, ‘cos that’s all there is!

There are loads more characterless Japanese ‘shopping trolleys’ which happen to drive anything other than just the front wheels, BIG 4x4 off-roaders, and American muscle cars available.

Does this argument mean that if 22 people in Jaguar XJ220’s turned up, you’d laugh because there weren’t many of them, despite it being 100% of the ownership???

I think that you were accusing me of a p-ing contest, well, If I did get into one, I believe you’d lose! But I’m a bit too grown-up for that!

Seeing your pictures, and comparing numbers to the M100’s at Donnington, I had to admit to a short twinge of envy. Lots of different shopping cars, in lots of pretty colours – it was just like Tesco’s car park!!

Unfortunately, we only have one make and a handful of colours to chose from – But loads of character!

Of course you don’t want to quote my second posting which you annihilated without justification, because you know I was (and still am, right!)

I’m in no way “Anti-American”, but as you say yourself, you’re a first generation immigrant. How patriotic of you to have fully embraced the principles of your new, adopted homeland.

The Constitution allows freedom of belief and freedom of speech, many people throughout the world have been killed in pursuit of such a right, and it is testament to your tenacity that you have spoken out, even when shown to be wrong, just because you can!!!

It’s a pity you haven’t shown a similar patriotic approach to your home economy and choice of motor vehicles. Now, there’s nothing wrong with Japanese shopping cars, (Lotuses wouldn’t have an engine without them!), but America makes some fine Automobiles of their own – junk the sports wagons, GT’s, coupes, and Chelsea Tractors in the picture and what have we got left????

Vipers? Ford GTs? Mustang Salems? Cobras? Corvettes?

Nah, it’s an empty parking lot!

There aint even a ’68 Shelby Cobra, ’71 ‘Jet, 440 Hemi-‘Cuda (Oh I love all those cars – big V8 lump, cheap petrol, straight roads – Automotive heaven!)

Sorry, I’m drifting again!

Back to your comments, You seem to make derogatory comments to portray homosexuality in a negative way, THIS IS AN UNACCEPTABLE MANNER OF COMMUNICATION IN A PUBLIC FORUM! As such, I call upon the Moderators to admonish you with (at least) a warning!

We must all embrace and welcome diversity (on this forum, as in America, as in England and everywhere else!).

What possible argument can be drawn from a persons (supposed) orientation? This is obviously meant to portray same-gender couples in a defamatory way.

Sexuality, like skin colour, hair type, or penis size is simply a matter of Nature. It IS NOT learned or instilled.

Some people may try to make up for ‘personal deficiencies’ in other ways, but there must be no attack on things we cannot chose.

I think it’s a sad case when, with all that is available in America, you have to have a couple of low-power Japanese cars at the front of your ‘Anti FWD’ Jingoistic meeting publicity photograph, but hey, It’s your choice!

(I’m not referring to the Skyline – They’re awesome motors, I had an early one and put a mild 550bhp on the ground!)

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by dapinky

Good evening, friends

Oh, how silly this has got. "My gang is bigger than your gang." "My dad can beat your dad"

Phil, of course YOU could bring more people to the party - assuming it was held in USA, then there could only be 550 M100’s, ‘cos that’s all there is!

Thank goodness for that.

Originally Posted by dapinky

There are loads more characterless Japanese ‘shopping trolleys’ which happen to drive anything other than just the front wheels, BIG 4x4 off-roaders, and American muscle cars available.

Sure there are, but all of the ones pictured have drive wheels in the rear and steering in the front (some may even have power at both ends).

Originally Posted by dapinky

Does this argument mean that if 22 people in Jaguar XJ220’s turned up, you’d laugh because there weren’t many of them, despite it being 100% of the ownership???

No, that'd be your fellow M100 extremist, Elanlover. He can't count

Originally Posted by dapinky

I think that you were accusing me of a p-ing contest, well, If I did get into one, I believe you’d lose! But I’m a bit too grown-up for that!

Talking about being grown up and being grown up are two entirely different concepts, making commentary like this suggests you're not quite there yet

Originally Posted by dapinky

Seeing your pictures, and comparing numbers to the M100’s at Donnington, I had to admit to a short twinge of envy. Lots of different shopping cars, in lots of pretty colours – it was just like Tesco’s car park!!

I'd be miffed too, if the pictures of M100s didn't look like a dealership or production line, well that and the M100s are all FWD

Originally Posted by dapinky

Of course you don’t want to quote my second posting which you annihilated without justification, because you know I was (and still am, right!)

Where's the efficiency in repeating what I've already said in response. You started it, I merely responded

Originally Posted by dapinky

I’m in no way “Anti-American”, but as you say yourself, you’re a first generation immigrant. How patriotic of you to have fully embraced the principles of your new, adopted homeland.

The Constitution allows freedom of belief and freedom of speech, many people throughout the world have been killed in pursuit of such a right, and it is testament to your tenacity that you have spoken out, even when shown to be wrong, just because you can!!!

Shown to be wrong? Lovely, if you say so, surely I am!

I'm wrong in your "Bizzaro world", clearly FWD cars are the platform for performance vehicles. I suggest you tell the folks over at Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, even Lotus, that they're all dead wrong with their current (and historic) models and to swap over to FWD.

Originally Posted by dapinky

It’s a pity you haven’t shown a similar patriotic approach to your home economy and choice of motor vehicles. Now, there’s nothing wrong with Japanese shopping cars, (Lotuses wouldn’t have an engine without them!), but America makes some fine Automobiles of their own – junk the sports wagons, GT’s, coupes, and Chelsea Tractors in the picture and what have we got left????

You presume too much and really know very little

Originally Posted by dapinky

Back to your comments, You seem to make derogatory comments to portray homosexuality in a negative way, THIS IS AN UNACCEPTABLE MANNER OF COMMUNICATION IN A PUBLIC FORUM! As such, I call upon the Moderators to admonish you with (at least) a warning!

Really? How's that again?

Originally Posted by dapinky

What possible argument can be drawn from a persons (supposed) orientation? This is obviously meant to portray same-gender couples in a defamatory way.

You are trying (and failing) to put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by dapinky

Sexuality, like skin colour, hair type, or penis size is simply a matter of Nature. It IS NOT learned or instilled.

This is actually another topic of discussion.... but here's some thought for you, if homosexuality is genetic, how is it passed on?

Originally Posted by dapinky

I think it’s a sad case when, with all that is available in America, you have to have a couple of low-power Japanese cars at the front of your ‘Anti FWD’ Jingoistic meeting publicity photograph, but hey, It’s your choice!

You're kidding me, you're a Lotus fan and you're knocking "low-power" cars?

Originally Posted by dapinky

(I’m not referring to the Skyline – They’re awesome motors, I had an early one and put a mild 550bhp on the ground!)

Well then, obviously this makes you an authority on everything.

Look I tried to close the loop on your negative rambling, but you want to continue. I'm mildly amused but I suspect you too will soon get the /ignore.

Like the "big bad wolf" you can huff and puff all you like, but most people will stay say FWD cars are for utility drivers like soccer moms and little sisters.

I'm flattered that you think you need to seek my approval of your opinion, but I really don't care

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by Geordie

I see, you plan to buy an M210 when they come out.

I must admit to being originally confused by the term eleventy, but I now realise that we must have different conventions for incrementing units of ten. In English speaking countries we go eighty .... ninety .... one hundred .... one hundred and ten .... one hundred and twenty and so on whereas you obviously use the term eleventy for 110. I am confused why you are not consistent and use tenty for one hundred but there you go.

Tenty apologies for the misunderstanding, I just need to decipher the term fanboi now!

Be confused, it's obviously a state of mind you're familiar with.

BTW, If it wasn't obvious I was having fun with the "eleventy" I'll fix it just for you.

PS: Relax, you'll live longer.

[PhlypSide]

After a few days at the other thread, it would appear that the overwhelming majority of folks here wouldn't have bought their Elise/Exige if it were somehow a FWD car (I think this is indicative of what happened to the M100):

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32285

89.90% so far say nope, wouldn't buy a Lotus today if it were FWD.

[dapinky]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Wow? Really? Feel accomplished? I don't know what for, I never said FWD = sportscar.

It's sort of flattering, yet creepy in a gay stalker kind of way that you're following me about

Down, boy! I don't play for that team

I think that shows your inability to remember what argument you are perpetuating - They were your homophobic, and therefore totaly unacceptable, words.

I'm really not sure where you get the impression that I said FWD is better / best arrangement on every platform? Please refresh my poor memory by quoting it, for the benefit of this poor, old man with altzheimers fast taking over!

I said Homosexuality was a matter of nature, not genetic - please try to learn the language nuances (Queens English). Besides that, it has been shown that it is a natural deformity of the 13th pair of chromosomes which manifests itself in gender/sexuality orientation.

I'm not knocking any of the cars in your superb line-up - just wondering where the 'nice' ones are?

What has 'Lotus' & 'Low power' got to do with anything???

Your argument reminds me of the sort of guy who thinks that power = penis.

I've not claimed to be an authority on everything, I started off putting right your incorrect statements, went on to stating MY opinion, and now you don't like it, you're going to pick up your ball and go home, just 'cos you can't score a goal.

Power is NOT greatly important to me, nor is the platform / drivetrain arrangement, I buy cars that I like, not just to look good to the other boys in the car park, but then, I'm quite happy with my dick size

I've had (and still own) cars which were made before you were born with almost enough power to outrun a hedgehog - they were great innovations.

I've also had control of machinary with far more power than most people on here - another big grin factor!

But none of that matters to this thread - There are 2 underlying FACTS that you have not yet disproved, (other than by changing the rules!)

[1] a FWD car CAN be a sportscar.

[2] Phlypside is a man of insufficient vocabulary to hold a debate.

And before you choose to ignore me, I'm off to a 'real world' where opinions are accepted, facts expounded, discussions held, AND I AM RIGHT!

{no. not the LEC forum - friendly place that it is!}

I'm taking my kids to bed.

Night night

[Westrock]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

After a few days at the other thread, it would appear that the overwhelming majority of folks here wouldn't have bought their Elise/Exige if it were somehow a FWD car (I think this is indicative of what happened to the M100):

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32285

89.90% so far say nope, wouldn't buy a Lotus today if it were FWD.

No you idiot, because if the Elise/Exige was front wheel drive it would have been a completely different car (looks and performance wise). And like I said in that thread, having a mid ship motor and a drive train up to the front is completely illogical. Due to the size though it would probably would have performed alot better than many other cars out there. I've seen some CRX's hold their own on a road course, and thats about what a FWD Elise would be like.

Now I have no problems with FWD, but I am not going to spend $50K-$60K dollars on a car and it be FWD. Now does that indicate that I'm acknowledging that FWD is not the optimal platform? Yes it does. However I still stand by and point to the fact that FWD cars can be formidiable opponents in the real world.

You must be a standup guy in your mind.

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

After a few days at the other thread, it would appear that the overwhelming majority of folks here wouldn't have bought their Elise/Exige if it were somehow a FWD car (I think this is indicative of what happened to the M100)

Wow. After all the people posting here, with insight and knowledge you will never hope to have, you can still make that claim?

Its pretty clear that things are exactly as I suspected. You are the one with a chip on your shoulder. Not the rest of us. You created this poll for one reason only. To justify your own opinion. Not to honestly seek out the opinions of others. You simply got something against FWD cars. What is it? Was it really option 1 from 4 pages ago? You simply refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't fit into your pre-determined way of thinking. You have a very feeble grasp on reality.

Your "posse" clearly doesn't do track racing. Anyone who's spent any meaningful time on a track with others would know that you just don't blow off another car and driver because its FWD. Your forum pics seem to indicate that your limited racing experience is performed in underground garages and parking lots.

Anyone, with any real understanding of the original topic, even if they did originally vote no in your poll, would by now understand that FWD cars are just as much sportscars as RWD cars (or at least can be). This could have ended quickly and quietly with a simple "Hey, you might be right there". Even a simple admission that the possibility exists for FWD cars to be sportscars by you would have dramatically changed the tone of this thread and the people who vehemently oppose its now obvious intention.

You've been revealed as the close minded, hypocritical and petty person you are for everyone here to see. Only a small minded individual with a serious lack of meaningful knowledge about cars would create an entire website dedicated to ridiculing FWD cars and their owners. Please continue hanging out with your 6 man FWD bashing crew who's numbers can only become smaller as automotive enginner adavnces further and further.

Too bad for you that you have precluded yourself from experiencing fully what automotive technology can create for automotive enthusiast to have fun in. Its really your loss in the end and not anyone elses.



EDIT:

One last thing I saw while reading a few other posts here now.

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Look I tried to close the loop on your negative rambling, but you want to continue. I'm mildly amused but I suspect you too will soon get the /ignore.

At not time have you ever tried to do this. Your idea of "closing the loop" is getting the last snide remark in. That's not closing the loop my freind. That's perpetuating it. I've been waiting for someone to come along and direct a question at me since I seem to have made the most posts on this issue battling you.

"Why do you even care to put so much effort into this useless thread and continue this with him?"

There's really onr one reason. I was truly interested in seeing how far you'd go with this. I don't need to "win" anything here. I'm perfectly content with the knowledge that I know far more than you about sportscars. And I consider myself a novice. But I've watched you deny statements you've clearly made, accuse other people of personal attacks after you've made them yourself and ask the moderators to ban people in a way that implied they are your friends or on your side (likely because you saw we were new to the forum). I've watched you paint yourself into a corner then change the subject to escape or completely ignore the poster when they catch you like it never happened.

I've simply never seen anyone fight so hard to be wrong.

So, I genuinely and honestly wanted to see how far you'd go. All I did was stop the door from closing by adding a post. You kept charging through the open doorway and had to get the last word in. Every time. I just need to post here and you'll respond beause you have to get the last word in. And that's not closing anything.