Is there such a thing as a FWD (front-wheel drive) sportscar?

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Every man (or woman) can have their own definition of what makes a sports car.

Suuuure, you would say that, being a woman and all.

See, my definition of "woman" is a person who tries to make peace between fighting men. So that makes you a woman by my definition.

See how complicated things get when we make up our own definitions for words? It kinda disintegrates the entire function of language!

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Where are your stats that any stock Elan is faster than a stock Forester XT (like the one pictured?)???

okay I'll play your game -- you tell me what "faster" is to you and then I'll quote some numbers . . .

__________________________________________________ ____


and you just proved you don't even READ the words --> yes, you guys were bitching about sportscars and wagons and then YOU spouted off that a Forester is faster than an Elan:

I guess you meant "only my buddy's Forester is faster than some Elans" -- and if that's what you meant then I'm sure that is a correct statement. But obviously his is not a stock car, which again is what you wrongly implied in your last post saying that his pictured Forester is both stock AND not stock now ? ? ?

[certainly a 3300+lb car with 220 or so HP is not faster than a 2200lb car with 165HP]

if so then give me what you want:
acceleration, cornering, braking = Elan
reverse gear, depreciation, faster up on 2 wheels = Forester

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by transio

Suuuure, you would say that, being a woman and all.

See, my definition of "woman" is a person who tries to make peace between fighting men. So that makes you a woman by my definition.

See how complicated things get when we make up our own definitions for words? It kinda disintegrates the entire function of language!

Holy $hit; I had no idea, thanks for straightening me out.

btw, this is not the first time I have been mistaken for a woman on this board.......hmmmmmmmmm......I better start watching ESPN. I used to watch "The Man Show;" doesn't that count for anything?

[AV8NDOC]

well, I can tell you that my Elan went the fastest with only my wife at the wheel -- 100lbs less is a lot in a 2200lb car!

so now they are getting sexist too --

discriminating about car layouts; discriminating about sex; what's next? it's likely they would be the kind to discriminate about race too -- but likely they will not express it here.

they probably have a forum to vent that on somewhere . . .

[AV8NDOC]

how do you make a FWD car better?

add RWD.

how do you make a RWD car better?

add FWD.


"can't we all just get along"

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Holy $hit; I had no idea, thanks for straightening me out.

I think I actually added some curves.

[abefroeman]

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

okay I'll play your game -- you tell me what "faster" is to you and then I'll quote some numbers . . .

__________________________________________________ ____


and you just proved you don't even READ the words --> yes, you guys were bitching about sportscars and wagons and then YOU spouted off that a Forester is faster than an Elan:

I guess you meant "only my buddy's Forester is faster than some Elans" -- and if that's what you meant then I'm sure that is a correct statement. But obviously his is not a stock car, which again is what you wrongly implied in your last post saying that his pictured Forester is both stock AND not stock now ? ? ?

[certainly a 3300+lb car with 220 or so HP is not faster than a 2200lb car with 165HP]

if so then give me what you want:
acceleration, cornering, braking = Elan
reverse gear, depreciation, faster up on 2 wheels = Forester

You made the claim that no stock Forester was faster than a stock Elan, so the burden of proof is on you

Here are some easy ones: What is the stock 0-60 of an M100? The 1/4 mile?

Anyhow, this is all fun and games and has nothing to do with the original topic, you're just looking for any way to lash out at me--even at my friends who aren't even here, this behavior is sort of like a mortally wounded animal

I'll let you bleed out the rest, your arguments are already dead to me anyhow.

[Elanlover]

AV8NDOC,

From Subaru's own press release:

Originally Posted by SUBARU

The turbocharged/intercooled 2.5-liter engine in the Forester Sports 2.5 XT produces 224 horsepower at 5,600 rpm and 226 lb.-ft. of peak torque at just 3,600 rpm. The functional hood scoop, a telltale sign of every turbo Subaru model, provides a stream of fresh air to the engine-mounted intercooler. The Active Valve Control System variable valve timing technology optimizes the engine's volumetric efficiency and performance at all engine speeds. When equipped with the standard 5-speed manual transmission, the Forester Sports 2.5 XT can accelerate from zero to 60 mph in under six seconds. The turbo engine meets the strict Tier 2 Bin 5 Low Emissions Vehicle II (LEV II) certification for 2007.

Now, when a manufacturer says "below 6 seconds" that almost always means 5.9999 or something similar. Now, Car and Drive reports 0-60 as 5.9 which also means anywhere from 5.9 to 5.99999 in automotove journalist circles (something I know a bit about). Quarter mile is reported as 14.3 seconds at 96 mph.

Since the Elan is now 15 years old its hard to get data or even accurate data on it. But, here's a link which is a Top Gear video review where they quote (presumably) figures from Lotus (stated at the 6:40 minute mark in the video). Lotus Elan M100 shows as 0-60 in 5.7 and I don't have the 1/4 but, its bound to be pretty good and certainly better than 14.3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTK8uHLYMqM

These are all stock performance figures by the way. Regardless, your comment about "Fast" is important. Particularly in the "sportscar world" we've been talking about. That never speaks to straight line or 0-60 times. It speaks to handling, to driving around corners, straights, etc.

Few cars can match the Elan in that category as was written by so many journalists at the time. Many stated it was the quickest car from A to B in the world at the time. A measure of its overall quickness and agility. Even the mighty Lotus Esprit was reported to have a slightly slower lap time at Hethel than the Elan. I suspect that no one in their right mind would claim that a Forrester XT is "faster" than a Lotus Esprit.

Right?????

[smoseley]

You guys are wacky. Why not let this thread die and go explore the rest of this fine forum?

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by transio

You guys are wacky. Why not let this thread die and go explore the rest of this fine forum?

just clearing up misconceptions . . .

I assume it could go on forever with the like of himself here though ??

Happy Holidays

[cpforyou]

This is why BMW doesn't have FWD. I think it should apply to sports cars too! =)

[LotusElanM100]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

You made the claim that no stock Forester was faster than a stock Elan, so the burden of proof is on you

Here are some easy ones: What is the stock 0-60 of an M100? The 1/4 mile?

Anyhow, this is all fun and games and has nothing to do with the original topic, you're just looking for any way to lash out at me--even at my friends who aren't even here, this behavior is sort of like a mortally wounded animal

I'll let you bleed out the rest, your arguments are already dead to me anyhow.

Hmmm

Sounds like you can not give any data in order to support your own argument, you are asking AV8NDOC to give data "first" but cause you do not want to be caught with your pants down again. I hate to say it PhlypSide but you first made the claim that the stock Forester was faster than a stock Elan and AV8NDOC was just responding to your discussion concerning your buddy's NON-stock Forester. Come-on PhlypSide, lets see the data on the stock version of your buddy's Forester

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by cpforyou

This is why BMW doesn't have FWD. I think it should apply to sports cars too! =)

Seen it already. About 143 posts ago. But, BMW's ad is really nothing more than an attempt to mock FWD. Did they provide any evidence or just a nice photoshopped pic?

So, are they saying they don't do FWD because:

1) It looks funny

2) We'd have to have bigger tires on the front, or

3) Our cars would look like fuzzy little bunnies

I've been a long time fan of BMW. Hard to beat German engineering I say. But, this ad dissapoints me. Sure, its humorous and I giggled a bit. But, there's nothing here that says there's a good technical reason for not having FWD. Considering we are talking about Germans, a race of engineers it seems, I'd have expected a bit more.





Think of how that bunny would CORNER though!

[AV8NDOC]

yes, the ad is ludicrous -- I have never seen a bunny walk on 2 legs -- it has AWD for sure!!

If we paralyzed a bunnys front legs so they couldn't apply power, I'm sure it would not be a pretty sight.

do you just go along with whatever the ad mongers want you to believe?? -- I bet you did actually believe the ad until I reminded or educated you that it is not even true . . .

Humans would be the only analogy to RWD; but then I am NOT using my feet to type this either, so even that is a stretch.

[Geordie]

Welcome back Elanlover, glad to see you weren't bullied into oblivion by the "If you post again, I win" shenanigans.

I think that the point Phyl makes about the Forester 0-60 spec is fair enough - sub 6 seconds is phenomenal for something that looks like a couple of housebricks (not sure if you have the same term in the US). My brother-in-law has a Forester to transport divers and diving kit around Australia; it does that brilliantly however it is not a sports car, so I can't see the relevance to this thread personally. The other fact that has been overlooked is that the Forester has benefited from almost 20 years of motor racing development, so it is a bit harsh to compare the two - in general, M100 owners don't go around decrying the original Elan performance figures. As has been said before, the 0-60 figures are for spotty school kids and to give a general indication of a car's performance. That said the SE acceleration figure was measured as 6.5s by Autocar so there is no arguing that the stock Forester XS is quicker to 60 than the 18 year old Elan. Once the Elan is rolling however, the performance and handling (especially around the twisty lanes we have in England) are superb and there is not a lot around that can keep up.

In the excellent book by Mark Hughes on the M100, there is a tantalising hint of what might have happened but for the worldwide downturn in 1992: There were plans to make the M100 four wheel drive and to increase the boost significantly, to more than offset the additional transmission losses - you don't plan for the next model to have worse figures do you? This seems to have a sound basis as many people have enjoyed the >200bhp achievable with a mildly re-mapped ECU that increases boost from ~0.6 to ~0.9bar and some people (e.g. Sh4rk) have been running with a lot more than that.

Leaving the figures alone, the M100 is a fun convertible - I would turn the original question around and ask, how else would you describe it, other than as a sports car? It is, I believe, a truly unique front wheel drive sports car. We should applaud Colin Chapman and the Lotus ethos that has produced such a diverse range of cars including the world's first and only front wheel drive sports car.

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by Geordie

Leaving the figures alone, the M100 is a fun convertible - I would turn the original question around and ask, how else would you describe it, other than as a sports car? It is, I believe, a truly unique front wheel drive sports car. We should applaud Colin Chapman and the Lotus ethos that has produced such a diverse range of cars including the world's first and only front wheel drive sports car.

Lovely back to the point at hand

"anomaly"

"platypus"

"super unique and special"

"Lotus"

whatever you want to call it, it seems we all now finally agree that you CAN have a FWD sports car -- unfortunately if you do it is most certainly called "Lotus Elan."

[Geordie]

Thank you AvonDoc - You're not my local GP from Thornbury, Avon, England are you? If you are, I've got this rather nasty ..........

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by transio

I think I actually added some curves.

Gosh darn it Steve, stop with the clever come backs already; I can't keep up with you!

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by transio

You guys are wacky. Why not let this thread die and go explore the rest of this fine forum?

but educating Ty is just so fun