Is there such a thing as a FWD (front-wheel drive) sportscar?

[LotusElanM100]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Yes 86 41.95%
No 45 21.95%
H#ll no! 74 36.10%

These results are the second stupidest thing I had ever seen (the first was this topic). These results are not valid and show no scientific outcome that is meaningful. Only someone who does not know statistics or is trying to "force" an outcome in one direction direction would create a survey that has two possible answers for a no and only one for yes? By not having a equal number of choices for both yes and no the results do not become meaningful and the data is invalid since the answers becomes skewed towards only one possible outcome, anyone that took a single introductory course in statistics would have know that this survey was flawed from the get go.

In looking at this data, I have a strong feeling that the people that voted for choice three (H#ll no!) did not agree with choice "YES" and/or "NO" so they had to pick the third choice hoping it was the "neutral" choice and because that last choice was not even spelled correctly it must be thrown-out. It can also be argued that the people who selected the third choice did not know the meaning of the choice "no" so most likely they did not understand the choice "yes". It could also be argued that the people that voted "No" did not total agree with the choice of "H#ll no!" so they selected "No" thinking it was the neutral choice, there are way to many problems with this vote and the data is far from meaningful. The only thing we can conclude from this data is that the person that made the survey did not know what they were doing. The only way this could of even been close to a fair vote is by having three choices as follow so there is no confusion:

1. Yes, a front well drive car can be a sports car
2. No, a front wheel drive car can not be a sports car
3. No opinion on the subject

I hate to tell you this but your vote is totally invalid. The debate might be a valid topic but scientifically speaking as soon as one person participates in the vote and "YES" vote that a front wheel drive car can be a sports car then there is scientific proof that time a FWD car can be a sports car regardless of the number that say "no". The problem is with the question and how the vote was set up, an introductory class in logical thinking and scientific data collecting would have show this flaw before the vote was even done.

Sorry, your data does not show what you "want" it to show and has no scientific validity.

[babak]

Originally Posted by LotusElanM100

Sorry, your data does not show what you "want" it to show and has no scientific validity.

Most polls have little scientific validity. The fact that it is a voluntary response preselects participants that have a bias one way or another. Trying to make this topic anything other than a vibrant debate (i.e. no science) is useless. This is very much like arguing which is the best bond, Timothy Dalton or George Lazenby. There is no right answer.

[mini63]

Originally Posted by LotusElanM100

In looking at this data, I have a strong feeling that the people that voted for choice three (H#ll no!) did not agree with choice "YES" and/or "NO" so they had to pick the third choice hoping it was the "neutral" choice and because that last choice was not even spelled correctly it must be thrown-out. It can also be argued that the people who selected the third choice did not know the meaning of the choice "no" so most likely they did not understand the choice "yes". It could also be argued that the people that voted "No" did not total agree with the choice of "H#ll no!" so they selected "No" thinking it was the neutral choice, there are way to many problems with this vote and the data is far from meaningful. The only thing we can conclude from this data is that the person that made the survey did not know what they were doing.

This poll really does mean nothing - I agree - but the people taking this survey clearly knew what they were voting for when they voted "NO" or "H#ll No!". If you honestly think that people voted "no" thinking that they were voting for a neutral choice, you are clearly delusion.

It doesn't matter what the outcome was here. It just doesn't matter but the results are:

YES - 41.95%
NO - 58.05%

More than half the people who voted don't believe that a FWD car can be a sports car. That doesn't mean anything at all - but these are the results.

[Steve W]

George Lazenby (Obviously!)

[AV8NDOC]

I'm curious:

should I post a poll to ask "has PhlypSide ever contributed any worthwhile discussion to ANY of your threads" here ??

might be some interesting results from what I have read . . .

[PhlypSide]

AV8NDOC:

Awww it's okay, try to discredit me, it'll magically make everyone believe your car is a sportscar. LOL!!

Weakness.

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by LotusElanM100

In looking at this data, I have a strong feeling that the people that voted for choice three (H#ll no!) did not agree with choice "YES" and/or "NO" so they had to pick the third choice hoping it was the "neutral" choice and because that last choice was not even spelled correctly it must be thrown-out.

1. Yes, a front well drive car can be a sports car
2. No, a front wheel drive car can not be a sports car
3. No opinion on the subject

Who are you, Al Gore? LOL. This isn't Florida, there are no hanging chads. I have enough faith in the intellect of the average ET member to understand the difference between "Hell No" and "No opinion."

[Geordie]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

I'm curious:

should I post a poll to ask "has PhlypSide ever contributed any worthwhile discussion to ANY of your threads" here ??

might be some interesting results from what I have read . . .

And the result is:

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

AV8NDOC:

Awww it's okay, try to discredit me, it'll magically make everyone believe your car is a sportscar. LOL!!

Weakness.

actually it would be because I believe you are completely worthless to this community -- "my opinion, of course"

you have not added anything to this discussion -- when you are not here we are fine and have civil discussion -- then you return and are a complete ass

you know, the more people that believe it, it is likely the case -- not that anyone else's "opinion" would matter to you.

[babak]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

I'm curious:

should I post a poll to ask "has PhlypSide ever contributed any worthwhile discussion to ANY of your threads" here ??

might be some interesting results from what I have read . . .

That's actually not relevant. One does not have to be a 'contributing' member to belong. Many of us here, myself included, are not shadetree mechanics or tech gurus. But we do like fun cars and that's what draws us together.

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

actually it would be because I believe you are completely worthless to this community -- "my opinion, of course"

you have not added anything to this discussion -- when you are not here we are fine and have civil discussion -- then you return and are a complete ass

Pot, kettle, black. Put these together in a phrase. I understand it may be a challenge for you Mr. "I'm-Going-To-Make-Personal-Attacks-And-Hope-It-Proves-My-Opinion".

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

you know, the more people that believe it, it is likely the case -- not that anyone else's "opinion" would matter to you.

Thank you for summing it up for the rest of us non-M100 zealots. Frigging sweet!

You heard it here folks, from one of the "power forwards" from the 12/2006 Team M100 "team"...

The majority of folks here believe that there is no such thing as a FWD sportscar, and therefore, the M100 is not a sportscar by your own logic (as shown by YOUR bolded, red text above ).

Yay! Go AV8NDOC!!!

(Then again, at one time many people in the world also believed the Earth was the center of the Universe and that the sun orbited the Earth, and even that the Earth was flat.... but what does any of that have to do with the M100 not being a sportscar )

[AV8NDOC]

I had banked on you taking that lead, which then I can use to "PROVE" by a poll that you are a worthless ass!!

EDIT:
although short lived, the poll showed in a landslide that you have nothing of value to add here!

[LotusElanM100]

Originally Posted by mini63

If you honestly think that people voted "no" thinking that they were voting for a neutral choice, you are clearly delusion.

It is obvious that you have no training is data analysis or you would not be surprised by the reason why people pick the answers they do. I was only explaining some of the reasons why the poll is not valid and is meaningless, you could never truly look at the results of this poll as meaning anything nor could you use the results of this poll to make or argue some kind of point about FWD cars being sports cars unless you were an idiot. My attempt was only to show that there are to many "no" choices for people taking a poll on a yes or no question, people will think one of the choices has to be more neutral than the other choices or else why would their be three? People can also be confused by the "tone" of the choices if the choices are designed to create an emotional responce.

Do I believe that some people would or may have voted "No" only because they felt that "H#ll no!" was to strong of a choice, YES! I study data all day long and know this happens in poorly designed polls. Many people may not be sure about the choice "Yes" so they may selected choice "No" as neutral once they are totaly confused by choice "H#ll no!", you can not argue this fact because you do not know the emotional state of the person taking the poll and at the same time the survey is so poorly designed that the results are still not valid. To argue any differently shows a complete lake of experience designing and understanding polls and data collecting.

Now, you try to say I am delusional only because I pointed out the problems with the poll? Wrong! I can not explain why people voted the way they voted in this poll no more than you can, but I can pointed out the reasons why the poll is total egregious and is not meaningful in any way, I have only stated that people can be (and some will be) confused by having two choices for "No" and one choice for "Yes" with a YES/NO survey and this is why the poll is meaningless and laughable.

[LotusElanM100]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

The majority of folks here believe that there is no such thing as a FWD sportscar, and therefore, the M100 is not a sportscar by your own logic

Sorry, not proven and the data is not valid. Once more, because at leat one person voted yes to your poll it disproves your possition. Sorry

[mini63]

Originally Posted by LotusElanM100

It is obvious that you have no training is data analysis or you would not be surprised by the reason why people pick the answers they do. I was only explaining some of the reasons why the poll is not valid and is meaningless, you could never truly look at the results of this poll as meaning anything nor could you use the results of this poll to make or argue some kind of point about FWD cars being sports cars unless you were an idiot. My attempt was only to show that there are to many "no" choices and people taking the poll and when given three choices on a yes or no question it is proven that people think one of the choices has to be more neutral than the others, people can also easily be confused with the "tone" of the choices they try to trigger and emotional responce.

Do I believe that some people would may have voted "No" only because they felt that "H#ll no!" was to strong, YES! I study data all day long and know this happens in poorly designed polls. Many people may not sure about the choice "Yes" so they selected choice "No" as neutral once they are confused by choice "H#ll no!", you can not argue this fact because you do not know the emotional state of the person taking the poll and at the same time the survey is so poorly designed that the results are still not valid. To argue any differently shows a complete lake of experience designing and understanding polls and data collecting.

Now, you try to say I am delusional only because I pointed out the problems with the poll? Wrong! I can not explain way people voted in this poll no more than you can, I only pointed out that the poll is total egregious and is not meaningful in any way because of the choices that were offered and how the poll was designed, I only stated that people can be (and some will be) confused by having two choices for "No" and one choice for "Yes", this is why the survey in meaningless and laughable.

I agree - the survey is meaningless but you have choosen to ignore reality and have continually come up with convenient excuses for everything, in the face of any evidence.

You don't like the outcome of the poll so you attack its validity. People on this board know what YES, NO, and H#LL NO means. The general public may be too simple to figure it out but if you're saying that the people taking this poll became confused when confronted with these three choices, you are being very insulting to us.

[babak]

For the final time, knock it off. Calling out another etalker is not the type of behavior that is tolerated here. So consider this a warning to both of you. Drop it and let it end please so we can carry on with the debate.

[LotusElanM100]

Originally Posted by transio

Who are you, Al Gore? LOL. This isn't Florida, there are no hanging chads. I have enough faith in the intellect of the average ET member to understand the difference between "Hell No" and "No opinion."

This coming from a member of a website that has PhlypSide?

[LotusElanM100]

Originally Posted by mini63

you are being very insulting to us.

Please forgive me from the Lotus Elan M100 community, thank you for showing us our place and for showing us what the Elise community is all about.

I am done, thanks for this great insite

[Longtimelotusfan]

The question, I seem to recall, was 'is there such a thing as a FWD sportscar' the answer is clearly yes and a number have been built by different manufacturers over the years, the Alfa Spyder, Fiat Barchetta and by general consensus, the M100 which was the first of the breed built specifically because back to back testing of various options and layouts proved it to be the best option for controllable and balanced handling. The decision was made long before GM owned Lotus and GM inherited the decision and were persuaded to stick with it by the engineering and dynamic advantages it offered. Lotus knew full well that it was a bold step and that they would struggle to convince those who were incapable of conceiving that a sportscar could be anything other than RWD. Its clear that a substantial number of people continue to have views that were proven to be outdated over 20 years ago. But human nature is change resistant and largely incapable of accepting fact that is contrary to long held opinion. This is probably why the FWD sportscar remains a technical triumph and an outstanding example of design and engineering excellence but one that has not been pursued as the norm because it does not make economic sense to car manufacturers to make and market a product that has an inherent prejudice against it.

The only honest answer to the question is yes, all else is a matter of opinion unsupported by fact. To argue otherwise and continue to hold an opinion unsupported by fact is simply not the behaviour of an intelligent person.

[babak]

I've tried time and again to try to keep this civil; alas to no avail. Therefore I'm going to apply a more strict approach in hope of salvaging this discussion and keeping this thread open. From this point on please:
--Talk about the car, the data, the feeling, the passion, your beliefs and opinions.
--Please refrain from off handed comments, jabs, insinuations toward another member.