Is there such a thing as a FWD (front-wheel drive) sportscar?

[Elanlover]

Originally Posted by transio

Actually, there is, and part of that definition is "RWD". Of course, I think the definition predates the M100 Elan, so

Can't agree with that. First, show me where the definition of a sportcars, whatever that is, is universally accepted as true by all in the world. Its too subjective an issue for there to exist one definition as evidenced by the opinions expressed in this thread.

Originally Posted by transio

Well, the fact of the matter is that the dynamics of FWD inhibit the sport of driving. While a safer setup for novice drivers, FWD decreases the ability of the car by shifting the weight away from the driving wheels during acceleration, and eliminating the ability for controlled oversteer, both of which are beneficial to driving on a road course. Therefore, a FWD car is inately less able than it could be if it were RWD.

This is where the falacies begin. I would agree that few, if any, hade developed a true sportscar with FWD for all of the problems mentioned above. Now, imagine if you will, a master car engineer that one day designs a FWD car that absolutely eliminates ALL of the above mentioned issues. Truly and completely. Now, would you say then its not a sportscar? I'm not saying the Elan did that. But, imagine a car being built that did.

Now, imagin a FWD car that eliminated 90% of those problems. Is that a sportscar? What about 80%? Where do you draw the line? RWD cars are not without their problems too you know. If you've driven the M100 Elan for any length of time or taken it on the track you'd probably feel that its eliminated 90% + of the FWD issues.

Smells like sportscar to me.

Originally Posted by transio

For this reason, there has never existed a single FWD sportscar.

Until the M100 Elan.

Which didn't last long.

Which is why we have to assume that it was a fluke and discount its importance.

Lots of cars aren't being produced anymore. Doesn't mean they were flukes. The Elan was in production from 1989 to about 1995 I think. Its cost to produce as the reason it died. Not performance or lack of being a real sportscar.

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by Varien

Hmm, strip the neon down, have Prodrive or another reputable race/rally fabrication and tuning firm convert it to AWD, and tune the engine, and it'll compete on the Viper's level; throw enough money into it and it can/will beat the viper. Sure it's based on another car, but hell, that's one fast car. Is it a sports car? You better hope so, because you're legendary sports car could have trouble keeping up.

So saying that "the Viper is everything a Neon can never be" is referring to what unique point about the viper?

Perhaps the engine performance? Nope, that can be replicated. Downforce? Easily modified. Wider, stickier tires? Widebody + DOT legal R compounds. Oh I know what it must be, THE LOOK! So you must be saying the 'sports car' title is based purely on looks then? Of course not, you can't be that silly.

Perhaps you mean that the Viper was built as a no compromise sportscar from the ground up? Oh wait! Omigosh! Is that a truck engine under the hood?

Basically, all you have left is 'status.' If this is what you mean by "everything," then you're basing "sportscar" definition based on how others see the car.

EDIT: While typing, he did try to end it peacfully, so I withdraw the hostility.

"Status"? LOL! I "poo poo" on that idea. Status is not a measurable physical phenomenom, so what impact does "status" have on physics?

The point is given enough money you can make a woman into a man (physically) and vice versa. And I'm not trying to judge anyone on that, but think what was their original "intent" and design though? IMO, this is the equivalent of turning an econobox into a faster, re-done econobox.

So for all the add-ons and changes and other nonsensical (IMO) bullsh*t you could do to a Neon to make it perform like a Viper, it's still not a sportscar.

Another example? This is akin to using a wrench as a hammer, will it work? Sure, but it's a waste of a wrench and not really the right job for the tool.

In the case of a Neon, when properly MacGyver'd it's the hammer in the situation above (straight line acceleration) and the Viper is the wrench (both straight line acceleration and lateral acceleration ).

I'm all for underdogs, afterall I drive a 4-cylinder but I'm not soo far deluded as to equate a hopped up econo-box with a sportscar.

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Can't agree with that. First, show me where the definition of a sportcars, whatever that is, is universally accepted as true by all in the world. Its too subjective an issue for there to exist one definition as evidenced by the opinions expressed in this thread.

Here's a definition that I really like:

Sportscar:
While opinions differ as to the exact definition, most sports cars are rear-wheel drive, have two seats and two doors and are designed to provide excellent handling, acceleration, and good looks. A sports car can be described as a car whose dominant design consideration is driving performance. A sports car's main emphasis is on performance by superior road holding, braking, maneuverability, low weight and power rather than comfort, passenger space, and economy.

Originally Posted by Elanlover

This is where the falacies begin. I would agree that few, if any, hade developed a true sportscar with FWD for all of the problems mentioned above. Now, imagine if you will, a master car engineer that one day designs a FWD car that absolutely eliminates ALL of the above mentioned issues. Truly and completely. Now, would you say then its not a sportscar? I'm not saying the Elan did that. But, imagine a car being built that did.

Interesting that you started this paragraph talking about falacies and ended it with a presumption that an inate physical limitation can be overcome by some mystical future magic-engineering. Do you understand what "falacious" means? I'll attempt to explain by example. Please note the entire quoted paragraph above.

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Now, imagin a FWD car that eliminated 90% of those problems. Is that a sportscar? What about 80%? Where do you draw the line? RWD cars are not without their problems too you know. If you've driven the M100 Elan for any length of time or taken it on the track you'd probably feel that its eliminated 90% + of the FWD issues.

Don't get me wrong, I consider the m100 Elan to be a sportscar. A true, genuine FWD sportscar, in fact.

But at the same time I don't believe there's such thing as a FWD sportscar.

I hope you understand where I'm going with this. The m100 is like the amphicar. Let's start a thread asking "can a car be a boat?" Well, DUH... anything can be anything, as Jesse James proved to us. A cop car can be a donut shop. An ambulance can be a drag racer. A semi truck can be a motorcycle. But in order for us to accept a concept as a general truth, it has to exist in more than one unique instance. In other words, a fluke cannot define our reality for us.

And *I* for one believe the m100 was a fluke.

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by transio

Here's a definition that I really like:

Sportscar:
While opinions differ as to the exact definition, most sports cars are rear-wheel drive, have two seats and two doors and are designed to provide excellent handling, acceleration, and good looks. A sports car can be described as a car whose dominant design consideration is driving performance. A sports car's main emphasis is on performance by superior road holding, braking, maneuverability, low weight and power rather than comfort, passenger space, and economy.

most sports cars are rear-wheel drive

Note it does not say “ALL”

have two seats and two doors

Elan has that

are designed to provide excellent handling

Yes, handling was of major design importance (as per any Lotus)

are designed to provide excellent . . . acceleration

0-60 in 6.7 or 6.5 depending on where you read. Tweak the chip (no other mod to the entire car) and you get 0-60 in under 6 seconds.

are designed to provide excellent . . . good looks

Certainly subjective, but drive a well kept Elan to a gas station or park it next to other modern exotic cars and see how many people ask about the Elan and if it is a new design.

A sports car can be described as a car whose dominant design consideration is driving performance

definition: “Elan”= vigorous spirit or enthusiasm
Could you have a better inherent name for a Sportscar

A sports car's main emphasis is on performance by superior road holding

In fact, the 1991 Elan beat the 1991 Esprit in a timed road course in 1991 in one magazine’s test! Don’t make me look it up and scan the article—it may have been at Goodwood? ? ?

A sports car's main emphasis is on performance by superior . . . braking

I still have the videotape of the Motor Trend Television show where they state the Elan had the best brakes 60-0 that they had personally ever tested.

low weight

Obvious

and power rather than comfort, passenger space, and economy.

1.6 liter engine designed in the 1980s with 100HP/litre – whew, who else had that!

***But it actually has comfort, passenger space, and economy too


Well there ya have it. My vote is "YES"

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

Note it does not say “ALL”

[+ a million arguments explaining why the Elan fits the definition I quoted]

Ok, two things:

1. The "most" applies to the complete list, not to the first item in the list. I could show you other definitions that don't say "most", but I personally like this one, which is why I chose it.
   
   
2. Your whole list of pro-m100 arguments is off-base, because I never said the m100 isn't a sports car. In fact, I said that I DO think the m100 is a sports car.
   
   Now, do you want to dispute something I actually said, or did you just register here to throw out blanket statements that are completely inline with my own and don't disprove any of my actual points?

[etypeiii]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Eh? BMW's are BMW's and Minis are Minis. Just because Proton owns Lotus doesn't mean you drive a Proton Elise, that's stretching it... and sorry since they're all FWD, I'm going to go with sporty models of Econoboxes as opposed to straight up sportscar.

Many people use the term "BMW Mini" (or "MINI", or "BINI") to differentiate it from the original BMC/Austin/Morris Mini (of 60's fame, which was produced all the way until 1999.) A surprising number of MINI owners have no idea there actually was a Mini long before the MINI.



DLY

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by transio

Now, do you want to dispute something I actually said, or did you just register here to throw out blanket statements that are completely inline with my own and don't disprove any of my actual points?

didn't mean to offend and actually did notice that you had voted YES to the thread by your admission.

my point was only to use your sportscar definition quote to show that the M100 did fit the definition

and I did register since I am an M100 officionado in case stats and figures were requested

but I, like you, say let's move on already . . .

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

didn't mean to offend and actually did notice that you had voted YES to the thread by your admission.

sorry, I just realized I could view who voted what and it appears Transio voted "NO" to the thread

thus you must not know what an M100 is! Is it not a Lotus? Has Lotus ever made a non-sportscar? (but, Please don't reply that they made some bicycles too ) Is this not a LOTUS forum?


should I direct you to the M100 project thread about the car with 362HP on the dyno and 437HP with the NOS on? Then is it a sportscar?


should we discuss the debate about whether Lotus purposefully kept the M100's boost level limit to only 0.6Bar so that it wouldn't out-race the 1991 Esprit on all roadtests! In fact the Elan was developed with and programmed with fuel and boost tables well up to 0.9 bar, which gives it over 200HP on 1.6 litres and sub 6 second 0-60 times--but the factory set a boost limit at 0.6Bar. So had the Elan outpaced the Esprit then would the Elan be a "sportscar", or would the Esprit then NOT be a "sportscar" ? ? ?

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

sorry, I just realized I could view who voted what and it appears Transio voted "NO" to the thread

thus you must not know what an M100 is! Is it not a Lotus? Has Lotus ever made a non-sportscar? (but, Please don't reply that they made some bicycles too ) Is this not a LOTUS forum?

Why don't you read all the posts above before replying?

Originally Posted by transio

I consider the m100 Elan to be a sportscar. A true, genuine FWD sportscar, in fact. But at the same time I don't believe there's such thing as a FWD sportscar... in order for us to accept a concept as a general truth, it has to exist in more than one unique instance. In other words, a fluke cannot define our reality for us... And *I* for one believe the m100 was a fluke.

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

sorry, I just realized I could view who voted what and it appears Transio voted "NO" to the thread

thus you must not know what an M100 is! Is it not a Lotus? Has Lotus ever made a non-sportscar? (but, Please don't reply that they made some bicycles too ) Is this not a LOTUS forum?


should I direct you to the M100 project thread about the car with 362HP on the dyno and 437HP with the NOS on? Then is it a sportscar?


should we discuss the debate about whether Lotus purposefully kept the M100's boost level limit to only 0.6Bar so that it wouldn't out-race the 1991 Esprit on all roadtests! In fact the Elan was developed with and programmed with fuel and boost tables well up to 0.9 bar, which gives it over 200HP on 1.6 litres and sub 6 second 0-60 times--but the factory set a boost limit at 0.6Bar. So had the Elan outpaced the Esprit then would the Elan be a "sportscar", or would the Esprit then NOT be a "sportscar" ? ? ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP50

A modern locomotive has more horsepower and torque than anything this side of a Veyron, surely it must be a sportscar because of the horsepower *and* it handles like it's on rails. LOL!

I think I'll pencil you into the "if it's got horsepower it's a sportscar, Vern" camp.

[bhtooefr]

If the M100 wasn't a sportscar before: (I think it is, but...)

should I direct you to the M100 project thread about the car with 362HP on the dyno and 437HP with the NOS on? Then is it a sportscar?

Then I guess you'd say that this is a sports car as well:



Just sayin', and I'm in the "there is such a thing as an FWD sports car" camp. At least it's possible. It's been proven with the M100... and (although this is a race car, it does prove that an FWD sports car is possible) the 1989 Dodge Daytona IMSA FWD.

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP50

A modern locomotive has more horsepower and torque than anything this side of a Veyron, surely it must be a sportscar because of the horsepower *and* it handles like it's on rails. LOL!

I think I'll pencil you into the "if it's got horsepower it's a sportscar, Vern" camp.

have you ever even owned a Lotus or are you just here to be ignorant?

a fair question from what I have read of your responses

[zr1fan]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Care to offer any odds that even IF in "Bizzaro" world they allowed FWD cars into F1 that any sane, educated, F1 team would campaign such a farce?

You misread. If F1 required that, all teams would campaign such a car. And given an open choice on driven wheels with all else equal, I'd guess teams wouldn't go RWD either, but rather with all wheels driving. Who knows though.

However, in spite of requirements, here is one thing I guarantee. There will always be teams that will use anything that offers a competitive advantage. If there were ever a situation where the rules allowed certain advantages to a FWD layout, and such engineering existed at the time so as to make that competitive, someone would do it. Not unlike Audi entering diesels this year because the technology finally caught up to the rules, and the leeway allowed diesels (like the 5.5 liters of displacement vs the 3.6L of the R8) gave it a competitive advantage.

It would seem at the time, Lotus felt FWD had a competitive advantage when they designed the Elan. Perhaps as technology has progressed, they no longer feel that way. But you never know what way the wind will blow.

I could say similar about my ZR-1. At the time, DOHC's made sense to get the power and economy and reliability Corvette was after, they couldn't get there with pushrods. Now it no longer makes sense, and they can make pushrod motors that take no prisoners in terms of weight, power, and fuel economy.

It seems to me like you are asking the question "Can Front-wheel Drive cars be sportscars?" but you are answering the question "Are there any FWD sports cars currently?"

For myself, I don't generally think a car built around FWD is really intended to be a sports car. But there are always exceptions, and anything is possible. I certainly wouldn't say they fundamentally can't be a sports car. Personally, I think if a car is designed around performance as the main objective, then that's really at the heart of being a sports car. And if a car can perform when compared to its contemporaries, it's hard to say it's not a "real" sports car.

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by zr1fan

It would seem at the time, Lotus felt FWD had a competitive advantage when they designed the Elan. Perhaps as technology has progressed, they no longer feel that way. But you never know what way the wind will blow.

You really believe that? By Lotus' own words, they went with FWD for "controllability" (i.e. no oversteer). They used BS marketing lingo to try to sell people on FWD's advantages (which at the time were in increasing demand), but there is no way Lotus at the time, or you now, will convince anyone that a FWD setup had, has, or will ever have, a competitive advantage over RWD.

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

have you ever even owned a Lotus or are you just here to be ignorant?

a fair question from what I have read of your responses

Whatever you say, Vern. It doesn't make what you said any more logical nor any less dumb, but if it makes you feel better to believe in your world that I don't have a Lotus, then so be it.

[AV8NDOC]

i figured so

i bet you didn't know much about Lotus until you walked in to the dealer and gave them all that money for your Elise

better thank Hethel for making M100s -- otherwise they would have been scrapped and never would have progressed to making Elises

I know 2 Elans that go to trackdays near Chicago, maybe one will come tearing by you sometime soon . . .

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Whatever you say, Vern

and what's with the Vern thing?

does it make you feel better to be condescending, Dick. Is that your name? No, but since I don't know how to find it out (check the profile) it's what I'll start calling you

Or maybe "Turden" would be closer (gotta crack myself up by adding that on . . . )!

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

i figured so

i bet you didn't know much about Lotus until you walked in to the dealer and gave them all that money for your Elise

better thank Hethel for making M100s -- otherwise they would have been scrapped and never would have progressed to making Elises

I know 2 Elans that go to trackdays near Chicago, maybe one will come tearing by you sometime soon . . .

What car-loving kid dind't know at least the Esprit from the days of Roger Moore as James Bond?

Now you're predicting what would have happened in the past?! Awesome.

And I'll care about those 2 Elans, because?

[AV8NDOC]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

And I'll care about those 2 Elans, because?

because you're a Turden

[PhlypSide]

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

and what's with the Vern thing?

does it make you feel better to be condescending, Dick. Is that your name? No, but since I don't know how to find it out (check the profile) it's what I'll start calling you

Or maybe "Turden" would be closer (gotta crack myself up by adding that on . . . )!

wOw jOo aR3 a l33+ h4x0r! Color me impressed! Hahaha

I know you're impressed with horsepower and think it's enough to overcome a FWD layout.

I figured you'd be even more impressed with a 3,000+hp train since it handles like it's on rails, and well it has 3,000+hp... therefore it's gotta be a sportscar