Is there such a thing as a FWD (front-wheel drive) sportscar? - Page 8 - LotusTalk

PhlypSide · 12-12-2006, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Sadly, the Elan died not due to being FWD in any respect at all. It really was cost. Thnk about it. In 1991 the Elan retailed for about $38 - $40k USD I think. What's an Elise go for now in 2006? $38 - $40K for a car in 1991 that was FWD (no one at the time felt a FWD drive car was a true exotic) was a bit much to swallow. The federlizations costs for the US market were very high. Every Elan sold LOST money as they never had enough volume to realize the production savings they had hoped for.

Okay so which was it? To me it looks like no one wanted to buy a FWD car. So being FWD had everything to do with its demise. It was just expensive enough to make a FWD car the Lotus way, but no one wanted to buy it.

I think the sheer physics of a FWD layout will always cause it to be third fiddle to RWD and AWD, this logic is as applicable today as it was in 1991.

I know many here would not be driving Elises/Exiges if they were FWD. Oh wow, there's another idea for a thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanlover

The Elan had a bright future ahead of it. Designs for a coupe, 2+2, AWD and "super" variant were on the drawing board. A full size, mostly drivable M200 was created as a successor.

Sorry, but the bright future part is pure speculation. Unless of course you consider the Kia Elan an indicator of "success." Ugh!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Sad really. What would have happened to the sportscar world had the Elan been viable and sold at a competitive price? I wonder if the poll would have been "Are RWD sportscars dinosaurs?"...

FWD cars make performance driving more accessible (read "easier" to drive) but are no substitute for RWD or AWD platforms, afterall in a FWD car that while they do hold up the @ss end of the car and hold it "level", the rear wheels are mainly just along for the ride.

I've often joked that most FWD cars are like motorcycles (in reverse):

What do (most) front-wheel drive cars and motorcycles have in common?
Both have only two wheels that matter, and only one is the drive wheel! LOL!

(NOTE: I say most front-wheel drive cars, because most have open differentials which lead to the infamous "one wheel peels", AKA "Motorcycle burnouts")

PhlypSide · 12-12-2006, 10:05 AM

I created a thread to test the point as to whether or not FWD would kill Lotus sales, even today:

"In 'Bizzaro-world': Would you have bought your Elise/Exige if it were FWD...."
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32285

Greg · 12-12-2006, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

(NOTE: I say most front-wheel drive cars, because most have open differentials which lead to the infamous "one wheel peels", AKA "Motorcycle burnouts")

I don't like FWD cars either. But most FWD cars that are trying to be "sports cars" have limited slip differentials...

'Greg

PhlypSide · 12-12-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

I don't like FWD cars either. But most FWD cars that are trying to be "sports cars" have limited slip differentials...

'Greg

I thoroughly agree

but most FWD cars are not "sporty". There are only soo many sporty FWD cars that even offer the option for an LSD, and even less still that come with an LSD standard.

AV8NDOC · 12-12-2006, 10:22 AM

Ponder This:

so if we got an AWD car (Evo, Scooby, Lambo, Audi, etc.) and then tweaked the AWD system and the differentials to make it AWD or FWD or RWD, how easy do you think it would be to get in and know for sure what it was set at ??

(this is a serious question, and if you think it would be darn easy you are FOS)

smoseley · 12-12-2006, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

so if we got an AWD car (Evo, Scooby, Lambo, Audi, etc.) and then tweaked the AWD system and the differentials to make it AWD or FWD or RWD, how easy do you think it would be to get in and know for sure what it was set at ??

Having driven all 3 in recent years, I can say it's pretty easy to distinguish between them.

FWD = understeery
RWD = oversteery
AWD = neither

PhlypSide · 12-12-2006, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

Ponder This:

so if we got an AWD car (Evo, Scooby, Lambo, Audi, etc.) and then tweaked the AWD system and the differentials to make it AWD or FWD or RWD, how easy do you think it would be to get in and know for sure what it was set at ??

(this is a serious question, and if you think it would be darn easy you are FOS)

I would drive the car and find out

Given a dry (or wet, or snowy) stretch of pavement or more preferrably a closed track (but not a requirement) I think many could find out really quickly whether or not your miracle machine was in AWD/RWD or especially FWD mode.

Dry "test": Which wheels leave the marks after a smoky standing start.

Wet/Snow "test": Take a turn at speed. Which is more apparent, understeer or oversteer. Do you have to countersteer?

Granted there are a whole lot more variables in play (e.g. RWD, AWD, and FWD cars from the factory all have different suspension set-ups as well) but hopping into a Civic/Integra and then into a 240SX/RX-7 and then into a WRX/EVO will all be very different experiences.... we haven't even thrown in cars like 911s or MR-2s/NSXs/Elise/Exiges.... (RR and MR).

Elanlover · 12-12-2006, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

I'm starting to believe that the M100 is, as I have put it before, the duck-billed platypus of sportscars. But it's FWD layout is truly not representative nor characteristic of what is normally/widely/generally considered a sportscar.

I don't think any of us M100 owners would describe it that way but I concede your intention. Its is an anomoly in the sportscar world but it truly is a sprtscar. I don't know that many other car builders could have made a FWD Elan like Lotus did. The list of innovations developed from the Elan is long and distinguished. Its FWD handling and performance are only 2 things.

Here's some other excerps that are interesting:

"We had long discussions about vehicle dynamics and analysed it to death" said Kimberley. "There was enough evidence fro various thrid-party client projects to prove that we could develop a front-drive sport car that would embody the Lotus culture of good handling, manoeuverability and stability. Our intention was to create a car which would be unrivalled in its all-around A-to-B performance.

"There were other benefits, especially in terms of packaging. I am 6ft 5in tall, yet I find the car easy to get in and out of, there is loys of head and leg room, and there is plenty of footwell space. We also thought the marketplace was ready for a front-drive sports car. The car's price means that it appeals , just like the old Elan, to a wider, younger market - and many of these customers will have grown up with front-drive...................."

Besides this rationale, there was a deternination that the new Elan should explore frsh territory just as the original one had done. Roger Becker, who was responsible for all performace aspects of the M100, has been at Lotus long enough to see the cars of both generations - he worked on the old Elan and also on the Plus 2. Becker used to keep asking himself what Colin Chapman would have done for a 1990's Elan, knowing, of course, that he would have gone for innovation and distinctiveness. By this logic, a traditional front-engined rear-drive sports car would not have been a technological statement...........................

"I feel i have one of the most difficult jobs of all" confessed becker in his speech on that occassion, "which is to try to convince people about the performance characteristics of a front-drive sports car. If you could travel beside me in the car, you would understand. We wanted to produce something special. It had to be the world's best handling sports car. Responsive, agile, manoeuverable, stable. refined - and, most important of all, fun. We wanted the Elan to protect the customer, a quality which we express as our 'three 90's rule': we wanted 90% of our customers to be able to use 90% of the performance 90% of the time. All these things pointed to front-drive."

Can there be any more proof that FWD wasn't a decision based on available power trains, cost, etc.?

There's just too much information in the mark Hughes book to quote but I hope this and previous quotes dispell some of the misconceptions about the M100 on this board.

Someone posted earlier that the Elise could have gone the way of the Elan due to price. Truer words were likely never spoken. Lotus learned alot from the Elan. They were too "forward" (pun intended) thinking with the Elan and it didn't get the credit and accpetance it so justly deserved. When a car has that going against it AND a hefty price tag the market tends to be very small indeed.

I like the Elise a lot. I think its a fantastic car and a great product for Lotus. But, I love Lotus more than just one car model. These guys have been innovators for a very long time. The problem when your "bleeding edge" is that your techo treats don't always appeal to the mass market the way you hope they will.

EDIT (since you were typing while i was reposnding):

Reason for demise is generally considered price. Why? Hard to get someone to spend the money they were asking for the Elan at the time AND it was losing money. Losing money = bad. The car was killed. So price and cost if you will. I mention the FWD aspect only because that was part (not all) of the reason people wouldn't pay the money. Most had not accpeted that a FWD car could be a performance vehicle. And Lotus was asking money that already put it out of reach of most buyers. Don't forget that at the time FWD was still considered by most as cheap, small and Japanese.

No, the bright future wasn't speculation at all. As I said, the designs for the variant were already done and the production lines were tooled to make it happen. The M200 was recently sold last year I think in an auction. It runs. But, the M100 was killed as mentioned above. So, its not speculation to say these plans were done and the M100 had a bright future. That was always in the plans. I didn't say it was going to be hugely successful, steal the market, etc. That would be speculation.

As for your last point, RWD cars have their own problems too. They aren't the perfect sportcar platform. FWD have different problems. You can say you prefer to deal with the problems a RWD car throws at you. Ok. Some like the problems a FWD car throw at you because they are easier to deal with. That's not a statement that suggests a FWD car is leass of a sportscar because it has easier challenges to deal with. Some could argue it allows you to concentrate on DRIVING which is what the sport is all about.

As for this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Given a dry (or wet, or snowy) stretch of pavement or more preferrably a closed track (but not a requirement) I think many could find out really quickly whether or not your miracle machine was in AWD/RWD or especially FWD mode.

Dry "test": Which wheels leave the marks after a smoky standing start. - Not from within the car which is really what we are talking about here
Wet/Snow "test": Take a turn at speed. Which is more apparent, understeer or oversteer. Do you have to countersteer?

Ah, but this is the point we're trying to make! Take the M100 out on a dry track and tell me you feel the difference. Its almost imperceptible.

I'm not arguing that FWD is better or more sportscar like than RWD. My contention in these comments has never changed. Those that have never driven the M100 could easily draw the conclusion that FED cars can't be true-sportscars. Those that have with any regularity would never say that.

AV8NDOC · 12-12-2006, 10:45 AM

i figured I'd get weak answers like the above about just spinning the tires, and wet conditions, and taking a corner so hard to snap it into over or understeer

now in true road racing you would be doing neither of these. for example, if you just had a car like an Audi A4 and jumped into the start of the nurbergring and started driving with cars in front and behind you, I am sure it would be quite a mental challenge for you to decide and be right each time about the drive wheels set-up --- that's what I mean by my comment above.

Varien · 12-12-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

Wow you better be able to back up everything you're saying or lay off before the Viper guys start piping up. Perhaps I'll start a poll with your quote above as the inspiration. There are quite a few Viper owners here who would be more than glad to bring you up to speed.

Dakota suspension? Are you crazy? (*cough* leaf springs, on a Viper, those are some quality hallucinogens you're on, please get back to us when you're really "lucid")

Truck motor? Really? Did you come up with that all on your own?

Wow it has the same block, it *must* be the same motor

Wait isn't the Viper's V-10 an aluminum block? Isn't the truck's an iron block? Hrmmm. Did Lamborghini also rework the truck motor?

Never mind that the Viper was designed from the ground up to be a sportscar, and has been a very successful one at that. There is no econobox version of a Viper.

The Neon by contrast was designed from the ground up to be an econobox, any versions of it afterwards are merely MacGyvered up econoboxes

Apples to oranges really.

Alright, one, what a very condescending tone you've taken on already. Chill out.

Two, apparently, the Gen I Viper's shared a large portion of their front end with the Dodge Dakota of the period. I blame www.wikipedia.com for that one. The factuality of this statement can't be backed up with any hard evidence, however, so I concede that point and perhaps should hold back anything I don't know 100%.

Three, while you were busy being condescending, you should've realized the sarchasm in my entire post. Maybe if you actually read to understand, and not read to react, you would've picked up my point: by your logic, the engine from the Viper is just a truck engine because it came from a truck. "But the block was changed and a whole bunch of blah blah blah," apparently that doesn't matter. I gave you the example of the dodge Neon, and no matter how much work had been done, it didn't matter that the car was in no way a neon anymore. Since it had started with an 'econo-box' it will always be an 'econo-box.' Either admit you're wrong and that any car can become a sports car, or admit that at the viper's heart lies a mediocre (in terms of performance) pickup.

PS: I think the viper is an excellent sports car. I was mocking your logic when I called it a pickup. Chill.

PhlypSide · 12-12-2006, 01:53 PM

Sorry Varien, I'm just having fun with this

Trust me I have nothing vested in your (even in a mocking way) disparagement of Vipers, although I do love them

and consider them several classes above even the fastest of Neons.

BTW if you're going to quote wikipedia, at least get your facts straight, the IRON block in Dodge Rams, not Dakotas share a basis in origins with the V10 in Vipers, but the suspension? C'mon.

And no, a Neon cannot become a sportscar because you hop it up. The Viper was designed ground up to be what it is, component re-usage is possible and still compatible with that view, heck look at the Lotus cars which form the basis of this forum

[edit]Here's another test for you:
Park a standard Neon next to a Neon SRT-4.... park a Dodge Viper GTS or SRT-10 next to a ?????? guess what there isn't an "econobox" version of a Viper

[/edit]

PhlypSide · 12-12-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

i figured I'd get weak answers like the above about just spinning the tires, and wet conditions, and taking a corner so hard to snap it into over or understeer

now in true road racing you would be doing neither of these. for example, if you just had a car like an Audi A4 and jumped into the start of the nurbergring and started driving with cars in front and behind you, I am sure it would be quite a mental challenge for you to decide and be right each time about the drive wheels set-up --- that's what I mean by my comment above.

Ahhh so are you implying the only valid measure of a car's potential is on the track in competition? Surely you must be on the SPEED channel, what series should I look for you in, and more importantly what FWD car are you campaigning?

Honestly, less than 1% of us here are professionals, to make (IMO) a lame@ss argument that driving on the street will not enable a non-professional driver to tell the difference between FF (Front-engine Front-wheel Drive), FR (Front-engine Rear-wheel Drive), and AWD (All Wheel Drive) is pure bunk.

You don't have to drive a car 10/10ths, or h#ll even drive it on a track to be able to thoroughly appreciate the not-so-subtle differences between the 3 (technically 5 commonly available) drivetrain layouts. You can do this on the streets on your every day commute (although I don't recommend breaking any applicable traffic laws/ordinances in the process).

John Stimson · 12-12-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanlover

Take the M100 out on a dry track and tell me you feel the difference. Its almost imperceptible.

I have. The difference was obvious. You might not notice if you don't test the car's limits at all, or if you never accelerate while cornering. But when you talk about a "track" that's not the scenario I imagine. The car had power and handled well enough, given the fairly soft suspension. However, the dynamic was clearly front wheel drive, and had to be treated as such. If you make the mistake of trying to drive a FWD car, even a well-tuned one, like a RWD car, you will be slow.

zr1fan · 12-12-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

And no, a Neon cannot become a sportscar because you hop it up. The Viper was designed ground up to be what it is, component re-usage is possible and still compatible with that view, heck look at the Lotus cars which form the basis of this forum

[edit]Here's another test for you:
Park a standard Neon next to a Neon SRT-4.... park a Dodge Viper GTS or SRT-10 next to a ?????? guess what there isn't an "econobox" version of a Viper

[/edit]

Heheh, you really have a flair for absurd arguments. So basically a car isn't a sports car if you can park it next to something similar.

Engine design and design goals aren't that different from chassis design and design goals. To yank your chain a little, would you have the same thought if I started a poll asking "Can an engine be a proper sports car engine if it's shared with econoboxes?" Would you contend that no, you can't hop up into something proper, an engine that was designed from the ground up to provide pedestrian grocery-getter power and economy? If a Corolla pulled up and parked next to you at a car gathering, would you quickly close your hood/decklid/whatever before the owner saw your secret shame?

On platform sharing, or "hopping up" as you call it, are any of the following cars sports cars?

Nissan 350Z
Ford Mustang/Cobra/Cobra-R/Shelby GT500
BMW M coupe
Mitsu Evo (any of 'em)
Subie WRX/STi

There are probably more, but that's all I can think of offhand.

Even Lotus is talking about sharing platforms with parent Proton. Will that be the end of them making sports cars?

Edit: Add the Porsche 356 and the 914 to the list.

AV8NDOC · 12-12-2006, 04:45 PM

Sorry, I thought we were talking about "sportscars" here, so I am talking about driving it like a sportscar, not a rental.

Elanlover · 12-12-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Stimson

I have. The difference was obvious. You might not notice if you don't test the car's limits at all, or if you never accelerate while cornering. But when you talk about a "track" that's not the scenario I imagine. The car had power and handled well enough, given the fairly soft suspension. However, the dynamic was clearly front wheel drive, and had to be treated as such. If you make the mistake of trying to drive a FWD car, even a well-tuned one, like a RWD car, you will be slow.

Hmm....I can invite a large number of M100 owners over to this post who regularly drive their cars on track day who would would debate you on that. And they know far better than you would claim to.

Its FWD. It can show some signs that it is FWD when pressed very hard. Its nothing an accomplished driver wouldn't be able to handle with ease. And, I suspect that if you tried driving a RWD car like a FWD on on track day you wouldn't just be slower, you'd be in the grass.

But that's not the point of this post now is it?

AV8NDOC · 12-12-2006, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

You don't have to drive a car 10/10ths, or h#ll even drive it on a track to be able to thoroughly appreciate the not-so-subtle differences between the 3 (technically 5 commonly available) drivetrain layouts. You can do this on the streets on your every day commute (although I don't recommend breaking any applicable traffic laws/ordinances in the process).

You must not understand cars and physics much--you obviously CANNOT grasp the point I am saying. Lets make it elementary grade simple:

The power goes to the ground thru the drive wheels/rubber only, so simple driving that is not on the edge of the performance envelope will not uncover the obvious drive wheels that are working! So does a RWD car shift its weight back when launched and a FWD not--of course not.

Now, the suspension is what will control the handling of the car when moved from a steady state--this can be tweaked by the designers/engineers to do whatever you want with it. No car can be set-up for all conditions at once.

You obviously think you can easily tell if you are driving, for example, a RWD A4 versus an AWD A4 down the freeway, cause you are so smart and understand instantly the nuances of how the power is getting to the ground. Yeah, big deal--if you do such rash maneuvers, like any real driver wouldn't do, then you can coax the answer out of the car -- but my original question does not imply you drive it like a rental to get the answer, but rather that you cannot easily tell what tires are putting the power down.

Next, you are going to tell me that you drift your Subaru and can feel the differentials shifting the power between the wheels and know just when certain tires are getting the power to the road . . . .

Do you not understand that you can set-up the handling of any car to over- or understeer. Well I know this is true--just as plain as you think you know that all RWD cars oversteer and all FWD cars understeer--but I certainly do not have the knowledge/experience to tell you exactly how to set-up your car to prove it--but I can try if you want.

Do yo know there was an S1 Elise? Do you know it was prone to snap oversteer on the edge? Do you know the new Elise (probably the only Lotus you have ever known) is not prone to this like the old one? Do you think this is because they changed the drive wheels? Yes, you do.

PhlypSide · 12-12-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

You must not understand cars and physics much--you obviously CANNOT grasp the point I am saying. Lets make it elementary grade simple:

The power goes to the ground thru the drive wheels/rubber only, so simple driving that is not on the edge of the performance envelope will not uncover the obvious drive wheels that are working! So does a RWD car shift its weight back when launched and a FWD not--of course not.

Really? Wow, you understand sOoooo much more than me.

Did you read the article posted earlier, it explains all this as well

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

Now, the suspension is what will control the handling of the car when moved from a steady state--this can be tweaked by the designers/engineers to do whatever you want with it. No car can be set-up for all conditions at once.

I think the appropriate quip here is "gee thanks, Captain Obvious", didn't I say that the suspension is set differently in different drivetrain layouts so your "miracle" car isn't realistic in that regards either, way to claim a point I've already made

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

You obviously think you can easily tell if you are driving, for example, a RWD A4 versus an AWD A4 down the freeway, cause you are so smart and understand instantly the nuances of how the power is getting to the ground. Yeah, big deal--if you do such rash maneuvers, like any real driver wouldn't do, then you can coax the answer out of the car -- but my original question does not imply you drive it like a rental to get the answer, but rather that you cannot easily tell what tires are putting the power down.

I said to try the maneuvers on a large stretch of dry or wet or snowy pavement, preferably on a closed track, but it's certainly not required (lest you try to throw the argument the other way and say that "well that's just on a closed track"). Rash maneuvers on a large empty stretch of pavement does no harm and will certainly reveal the drive train layout of a given car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

Next, you are going to tell me that you drift your Subaru and can feel the differentials shifting the power between the wheels and know just when certain tires are getting the power to the road . . .

[Facetious]Sure, can you?[/Facetious] This is funny since all contemporary Subarus feature full-time symmetrical (50/50) AWD (with the exception of the adjustments you can make on STis).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

Do you not understand that you can set-up the handling of any car to over- or understeer. Well I know this is true--just as plain as you think you know that all RWD cars oversteer and all FWD cars understeer--but I certainly do not have the knowledge/experience to tell you exactly how to set-up your car to prove it--but I can try if you want.

No sh*t again, Captain Obvious

Most cars, even FRs are set from the factory to understeer to save n00bs like most of us are

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV8NDOC

Do yo know there was an S1 Elise? Do you know it was prone to snap oversteer on the edge? Do you know the new Elise (probably the only Lotus you have ever known) is not prone to this like the old one? Do you think this is because they changed the drive wheels? Yes, you do.

Not only did I know there was an S1 Elise, I was in Europe when they were released. What does this prove? Many MR cars, including the Toyota MR-2 (SW21/20) are prone to snap oversteer, especially if you lift mid-corner. You can tune out some of this with wheels/tires and suspension, if you like

Now WTF does all this jibber jabber have to do with FWD cars not being sportscars?

PhlypSide · 12-12-2006, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zr1fan

Heheh, you really have a flair for absurd arguments. So basically a car isn't a sports car if you can park it next to something similar.

No, get it straight, if your alleged sportscar is merely a hopped up version of an econobox, it's not really a sportscar. Get it right and quit inventing my points (and those of others) for me

Quote:

Originally Posted by zr1fan

Engine design and design goals aren't that different from chassis design and design goals.

Awesome generalization, truly. I believe this as much as I believe Al Gore invented the Internet. Engines are engines and chassies are chassies. The only points where these two coincide are hardpoints like motormounts (and of course selecting the proper chassis to support the horsepower and torque of the intended powerplant and transmission).

Quote:

Originally Posted by zr1fan

To yank your chain a little, would you have the same thought if I started a poll asking "Can an engine be a proper sports car engine if it's shared with econoboxes?" Would you contend that no, you can't hop up into something proper, an engine that was designed from the ground up to provide pedestrian grocery-getter power and economy? If a Corolla pulled up and parked next to you at a car gathering, would you quickly close your hood/decklid/whatever before the owner saw your secret shame?

No idea, since you're engaging in wild @ss speculation.

As a matter of fact the motor in the Federal Lotus Elise/Exiges is a Celica/Matrix motor, it's only recently been available in the Corolla XRS. On the contrary, I'd be rocking an NSX or BMW if there wasn't a Toyota powerplant under the decklid

View Poll Results: Can Front-wheel Drive cars be sportscars?
Yes	137	44.63%
No	64	20.85%
H#ll no!	106	34.53%
Voters: 307. You may not vote on this poll

12-12-2006, 10:05 AM	#142 (permalink)
PhlypSide My Lotus hates my bike. Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 3,643 Images: 9	I created a thread to test the point as to whether or not FWD would kill Lotus sales, even today: "In 'Bizzaro-world': Would you have bought your Elise/Exige if it were FWD...." http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32285

12-12-2006, 10:22 AM	#145 (permalink)
AV8NDOC Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 127 Images: 3	Ponder This: so if we got an AWD car (Evo, Scooby, Lambo, Audi, etc.) and then tweaked the AWD system and the differentials to make it AWD or FWD or RWD, how easy do you think it would be to get in and know for sure what it was set at ?? (this is a serious question, and if you think it would be darn easy you are FOS)

12-12-2006, 10:45 AM	#149 (permalink)
AV8NDOC Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 127 Images: 3	i figured I'd get weak answers like the above about just spinning the tires, and wet conditions, and taking a corner so hard to snap it into over or understeer now in true road racing you would be doing neither of these. for example, if you just had a car like an Audi A4 and jumped into the start of the nurbergring and started driving with cars in front and behind you, I am sure it would be quite a mental challenge for you to decide and be right each time about the drive wheels set-up --- that's what I mean by my comment above.

12-12-2006, 01:53 PM	#151 (permalink)
PhlypSide My Lotus hates my bike. Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 3,643 Images: 9	Sorry Varien, I'm just having fun with this Trust me I have nothing vested in your (even in a mocking way) disparagement of Vipers, although I do love them and consider them several classes above even the fastest of Neons. BTW if you're going to quote wikipedia, at least get your facts straight, the IRON block in Dodge Rams, not Dakotas share a basis in origins with the V10 in Vipers, but the suspension? C'mon. And no, a Neon cannot become a sportscar because you hop it up. The Viper was designed ground up to be what it is, component re-usage is possible and still compatible with that view, heck look at the Lotus cars which form the basis of this forum [edit]Here's another test for you: Park a standard Neon next to a Neon SRT-4.... park a Dodge Viper GTS or SRT-10 next to a ?????? guess what there isn't an "econobox" version of a Viper [/edit]

12-12-2006, 04:45 PM	#155 (permalink)
AV8NDOC Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 127 Images: 3	Sorry, I thought we were talking about "sportscars" here, so I am talking about driving it like a sportscar, not a rental.