Evora vs. Cayman S

[Simba]

Originally Posted by Redback

While I don't own a Cayman, I do own a Porsche and I can't help but think your arguments against the Evora are a little brand-bigoted and self contradictory.

First, no, they are anything but. I've been a die hard Lotus fan for a very long time. These days they're one of the extremely few manufacturers who make cars that are just about completely in line with my tastes. I could rant on endlessly with Porsche's recent stupidity regarding PDK, as well as go on about things that are wrong about the Cayman, but this is specific to the Evora, hence my comments on it.

I'm also not categorically writing off the Evora as a bad car, nor will I until I drive one. What I'm saying is that based on the currently available data, the Evora is not what I would want it to be for the price Lotus intends to ask for it. I'm also saying that if it were a good deal faster, it most certainly would be.

Yes, real enthusiasts care about how a car works and as you stated previously, that includes turn-in and steering feel, as well as brake feel and chassis dynamics. All of which you've conceded, the Evora may have over the Cayman.

Yes, again, based on currently available data. And while the Evora may, and given the people making it probably will out-handle a Cayman, that's not all a good car needs to do. The issue at hand is the same one that has every N/A Elise owner clamoring for Forced Induction, to the point that Lotus themselves cranked out a solution. I would have thought they'd have learned from that with the Evora.

Current road test performance figures put the Cayman and the Evora about line-ball (yet to be confirmed) so are you saying the Cayman is too slow for its price point too?

The Cayman S, while significantly detuned from the factory (read: Getting a good deal more power out of it is trivial, which I suspect will not be the case with the Evora), is still significantly faster than Lotus' current performance claims on the Evora. It's also considerably cheaper.

With the Evora being envisioned (and subtly suggested) as a car somewhere between the Cayman S and 911 Carrera, I would say that the Cayman is about as quick as it needs to be for its price point, while as I said, the Evora is not. Though, again, that's something to be conclusively determined once they're generally available.

The starting price of the two cars is different, but I suspect when optioned to a similar equipment/trim spec they will be very close.

What in your mind would be "similar equipment"? While it's true that you can make just about any Porsche amazingly expensive with stuff like PCCB and PDK, none of those things are in any way comparable to the Evora.

The Evora can also carry young children in the back too. Can't do that with a Cayman - which is why I have a Carrera...

No, you can't, though that's not really germane to my issues with the Evora vs. the Cayman, and other cars for that matter.

More power would be nice, but I don't see the Evora's current performance as a deal breaker for many buyers, - those who prefer corners to straights anyway...

The "those who prefer corners to straights" implication is just about as brand-bigoted as you accused me of being towards Porsche. I, personally, do not, which is why every car I have is rather good at going around corners. However, I'm also not willing to put up with absolutely lackluster straight line performance (or get out of corner performance) and gloss over the fact with "well, it's better in the corners".

N/A Elises are great to drive when you're wringing their necks in the twisties. However, as soon as you get out of the twisties, they're terrible. Slap a turbo or a blower on the car, and they're perfect in every way.

That's what I want in a new Lotus in exchange for my $75-odd grand. Else, I'm left looking at dumping another 10-15k and a lot of time and effort into the car to get it where I want it to be, and for that money, I'm not interested in owning one as the things it does well will not make up for the amount of attention needed to fix the things it does poorly.

Again, this is all quite subjective without an actual car to evaluate, or at least meaningful impressions to parse from those who have. Hence, I'm at odds not specifically with the Evora, but with Lotus' failure to recognize the need for more go-fast in a car that's supposed to be up-market from the Elise/Exige.

I want the Evora and everything else Lotus ever makes to succeed wildly, because I love the company and what they stand for. I just wish they'd be a little more pro-active, rather than re-active towards the "power problem".

[DeanG]

I don't recall where I read it, wish I did. The quote goes something like this:

"Lotus doesn't make good cars, they make great cars."

In my experience this is true except for the M100 which is a good car but not great. I don't know if the Evora is a great car. If it is merely a good car, that is one with a fairly nice interior, pleasing shape, decent ride, sporty handling and moderately quick it will be a failure. Enthusiasts have and will put up with lot for a great car. Lotus has made many great road and track cars. I hope that the Evora will be one of the great cars of the world.

[cstetter]

Originally Posted by dickedup

The Cayman S will sell everyday similarly equipped to the Evora for at least $5000 less. They are dealing and dealing and dealing.

So you know the official Evora US pricing? Please enlighten us

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by cstetter

So you know the official Evora US pricing? Please enlighten us.

Instead of $75,000 it will be $70,000 and change? Lets not us all forget that many dealers will be adding their "Newest & Greatest Price Pop"... to the bottomline. Many refer to this as a local market pricing adjustment.

Know it.

Live it.

Learn it.

[cstetter]

Originally Posted by dickedup

Instead of $75,000 it will be $70,000 and change? Lets not us all forget that many dealers will be adding their "Newest & Greatest Price Pop"... to the bottomline. Many refer to this as a local market pricing adjustment.

Know it.

Live it.

Learn it.

So you are just guessing as well then... I reserve judgement until we have official pricing and I've had a chance to drive one.

I think the days of dealer mark up are over for a while.

[PECivil]

i bet they wont be for the evora tho due to the very low numbers available and the amount of people with rather unlimited wealth who will buy one because it is the latest and greatest.

I mean how many are coming here? 800 or even less?

Lotus will sell out the evora (at least the 1st year) quickly, and that always means waiting lists and premium pricing

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by cstetter

So you are just guessing as well then... I reserve judgement until we have official pricing and I've had a chance to drive one.

I think the days of dealer mark up are over for a while.

Lotus has announced and told Rednecks many times that the initial release price will be around $75,000 or so. Betting this will increase a grand or two by the times they roll off the boat.

If you truly believe that dealers will not mark up the price than I'd look twice at where that business degree you hold came from.

Lets see what happens.

[cstetter]

Originally Posted by dickedup

If you truly believe that dealers will not mark up the price than I'd look twice at where that business degree you hold came from.

Lets see what happens.

That's why I have an engineering degree

Base price may be fairly set but we have no good idea on what options will be standard and what the price of the non-standard options will be and that is what we need to do a true comparison.

Dealers will not get markup. That's my story and I'm sticking with it Prove me wrong.

Looked at AM V8's lately? Limited production and they were getting HUGE markups 2 years ago. What about R8s? No more markups there either.

[Redback]

The Cayman S, ... is still significantly faster than Lotus' current performance claims on the Evora.

Porsche Website: Cayman S (Manual)

0-60mph 4.9 seconds
0-100mph 11.4 seconds

Lotus Press Material: Evora

0-60mph 4.9 seconds
0-100mph 11.5 seconds

"Significantly" ?????

While it's true that you can make just about any Porsche amazingly expensive with stuff like PCCB and PDK, none of those things are in any way comparable to the Evora.

Nope. I priced up a Cayman with options the average person might select and those which bring it closer to the spec I'd choose for an Evora.
Natural Leather Interior; Sports Bucket Seats; Sports Steering Wheel; Sports Shifter; 19" Wheels; Climate Control; Bose Stereo & CD Stacker; Bi-Xenon Lights.
$73,420

As I understand it, the US pricing for the Evora has yet to be released, but here in Australia a comparably equipped Evora would end up slightly less than an equivalent Cayman S. Perhaps when pricing is finalised for the US market, it will be similar?

The "those who prefer corners to straights" implication is just about as brand-bigoted as you accused me of being towards Porsche.

Perhaps my statement was ambiguous. I wasn't implying anything about Porsche. I love my Carrera and while it's not as inherently well-balanced as the Cayman (or my Elise), when (on the right day) you turn off the electronic nannies, it's actually more rewarding to drive simply because of its idiosyncracies.

My remark actually concerned the driving priorities of prospective purchasers, not the inherent qualities of either marque.

I'm left looking at dumping another 10-15k and a lot of time and effort into the car to get it where I want it to be...

Unless you're also dissatisfied with the performance of your Cayman, - then why? If you choose to go with after-market enhancements, I think $10k would get you a TVS quite comfortably. (The TVS supercharger is already on a production (TRD) 2GR-FE engine here in Oz and components are available as spare parts.)

A supercharged Evora would be a very quick machine. Wouldn't you need a similar investment in the Cayman to provide the same performance?

At the end of the day, none of us has driven the Evora and therefore none of us is qualified to pass judgement. No one I know has yet seen the full (US) Evora pricing or the US-specific equipment list either.

Despite this, there still seems to be a lot of very firmly held opinions and definitive comparisons based on nothing more than supposition and conjecture...

[Simba]

Originally Posted by Redback

"Significantly" ?????

Yes, significantly. Mine consistently pulled 4.6-4.7 second 0-60 times on a vbox right off the showroom floor, and I'd be willing to bet the Evora will be more than slightly off its press numbers. Time will tell in that regard, however, my Cayman made ~285 hp at the wheels with nothing more than an exhaust on it, as Porsche quite obviously corked the car up to keep it out of 911 territory. The Evora will not do that, by any stretch of the imagination, and it even weighs slightly more.

Nope. I priced up a Cayman with options the average person might select and those which bring it closer to the spec I'd choose for an Evora.
Natural Leather Interior; Sports Bucket Seats; Sports Steering Wheel; Sports Shifter; 19" Wheels; Climate Control; Bose Stereo & CD Stacker; Bi-Xenon Lights.
$73,420

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers. The invoice on mine, with 19" sport design wheels, sport chrono, and various other bits came to $65,170. Out the door it was $69,299. The base price on the S is $60,200. Frankly, throwing ~$13,000 worth of options into the Porsche, including silliness like the $5,000 GT3 seats, and calling it comparable, is rather disingenuous.

The fact of the matter is, a reasonably comparable Cayman S is not going to exceed $65k. Whereas all signs point to the Evora being at least $75k, and probably closer to 80, before you add options or even think of driving it off the lot.

Unless you're also dissatisfied with the performance of your Cayman, - then why? If you choose to go with after-market enhancements, I think $10k would get you a TVS quite comfortably. (The TVS supercharger is already on a production (TRD) 2GR-FE engine here in Oz and components are available as spare parts.)

I was. Then I spent ~$2,000 on an exhaust and tune, which resulted in ~350hp. And while $10k-odd bucks will certainly have a blower on an Evora, that brings the total north of $85k any way you cut it. The level of performance a ~350 hp Evora would provide is not worth that to me. A 500 hp Evora, yes, but that's not happening without a rather large time and money investment in the car, kissing off the warranty, and so on and so forth.

A supercharged Evora would be a very quick machine. Wouldn't you need a similar investment in the Cayman to provide the same performance?

A supercharged Evora would be a reasonably quick machine. It's still going to be no where near my Turbo Elise, or hell, a slightly tuned Esprit for that matter. As I stated earlier, the Cayman cost me about $2k to realize some 350 hp.

At the end of the day, none of us has driven the Evora and therefore none of us is qualified to pass judgement. No one I know has yet seen the full (US) Evora pricing or the US-specific equipment list either.

That's true, which is why my previous post is littered with caveats to the tune that I'd be waiting until I drove one before passing any sort of judgement on the car. My ultimate point, again, was not specific to what the Evora may or may not be, short of Lotus' published power and price claims, which in summary for me means not enough go for too much money. My point was that the car is underpowered for the price point, while citing the Cayman S as an example of a car more in line with reality for a bang for the buck standpoint. I could have as easily used a BMW Z4M or Corvette or what have you to further the issue, but most people, and this very thread, have most often compared the Evora to the Cayman, hence my comments.

At the heart of the issue, for me, is that Lotus has once again cranked out an underpowered car, and while I'm sure the aftermarket will "fix" that, and eventually Lotus themselves with an S model or whatever, it is still disheartening that they would produce another car that is sure to get lambasted by its detractors for being slower than x and more expensive than y in considerably less kind methods than I've used. If Lotus saw fit to bring the car in at $65k, or come out of the gate with 320-350hp at its current price point, I wouldn't be complaining, I'd be buying.

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by cstetter

That's why I have an engineering degree

Dealers will not get markup. That's my story and I'm sticking with it Prove me wrong.

Good Lord what to do with you? This newest Lotus will fetch extra dollars especially from the Looky@Me crowd.

Let us wager.

If the vehicle is released for a penny more than the rumored $75,000 base price tag... you lose.

If heaven forbid, dealers add their beloved local market adjustment of "X' dollars on top of this $75,000 base price... you lose.

Dollar amount of our bet?

$20 if you're in the IT industry.

$50 if you're an engineer in any other industry.

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by Redback

Despite this, there still seems to be a lot of very firmly held opinions and definitive comparisons based on nothing more than supposition and conjecture...

Just witness all of THAT with the Buzzbomb.

The Evora will be a fine car for those that have to ahve one. It will find it's spot.

[Aedo]

Originally Posted by Simba

....
At the heart of the issue, for me, is that Lotus has once again cranked out an underpowered car...

I find this idea quite sad really - the original Elise sold well and was loved by its owners - had 118bhp.

The biggest selling Elise at the moment in Aus (and probably the UK) is the Elise S - 134bhp - and much loved by its owners, buyers, and the press - but not sold in US because "its underpowered"

[Bavarian Motorist]

The US market is different, Aedo. If you ain't got power here, you earn a reputation for being slow, and the 111R already has that reputation to a degree. Most of the time it's merely a marketing tool and doesn't necessarily make the cars particularly fast, but if you look at any US car commercials, virtually every single one, save for BMW on the 328/528, boasts engine configuration and power ratings. A 134hp Elise would be a miserable sell here, considering a Mazda Miata has more power and costs less. That's what buyers look at, even if they never use the power at the hand.

The exception to this rule is hybrids. Hybrid cars get a free pass for having anemic motors because people want to see the highest MPG ratings on hybrids, even though the ignoramuses don't realize the same motor in a non-Hybrid will yield the same MPG numbers on the hwy..


Anyways, different market here.

[ishmael]

It's amazing how many people that own a Lotus or have an interest in the marque don't actually understand what Lotus is about. Lotus has never been about chasing other companies' power figures. I'm not sure that all of the new generation of owners 'get it' and that is no way intended to offend anyone. Read a little about the history of the company and things will make much more sense. I do agree the US is a different market but I don't anticipate selling 600-800 Evoras a year here will be a problem once the economy recovers. I do believe Lotus could sell the 134 hp Elise here at the right price point but profitability would be an issue I'd assume.

[MattSB]

Totally random speculation (as is most of this thread given the lack of quantitative testing done on the Evora, and the lack of US pricing) is that Lotus prioritized its microscopic engineering budget (what other company proclaims that designing a car in a short period of time is a good thing) on the things that make a Lotus a Lotus, namely handling and steering quality and dealing with the biggest problem with their existing offering (ergonomics and interior quality) and deferred one thing until they had made some money off the first couple of years' production: Engine improvements.

If they hadn't spent their money on handling and ergonomics, nobody would have bought the car except the people who have to own the latest brit-thing. If they don't spend their money on an engine, they'll still sell out.

[Simba]

Originally Posted by ishmael

It's amazing how many people that own a Lotus or have an interest in the marque don't actually understand what Lotus is about. Lotus has never been about chasing other companies' power figures. I'm not sure that all of the new generation of owners 'get it' and that is no way intended to offend anyone.

If you're referring to me-- my first Lotus was a '69 Elan. ~120 hp was plenty for that car because it weighs less than a mosquito fart. It wasn't as fast as a lot of stuff, even at the time (early 90s), but I never really had a pressing want for more power in that car.

Different story with the Esprit, until the V8 came along. With the Elise, until forced induction came along, and almost certainly with the Evora. Nothing wrong with making a heavier car targeted at a different market, so long as it has enough grunt to make it interesting to drive most of the time, instead of just some of the time.

[Aedo]

Originally Posted by Aedo

I find this idea quite sad really

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

The US market is different, Aedo.

I know. That's why I started my comment with the above quote.

[cstetter]

Originally Posted by dickedup

Good Lord what to do with you? This newest Lotus will fetch extra dollars especially from the Looky@Me crowd.

Let us wager.

If the vehicle is released for a penny more than the rumored $75,000 base price tag... you lose.

If heaven forbid, dealers add their beloved local market adjustment of "X' dollars on top of this $75,000 base price... you lose.

Dollar amount of our bet?

$20 if you're in the IT industry.

$50 if you're an engineer in any other industry.

What does the Semiconductor industry count under?

Either way, I'm not willing to bet - since Lotus only plans to sell 800 or so units, they may well be pricing it over $75k, who knows? My point was only that we don't KNOW how much they will actually charge. On the markup, how to prove it if anyone paid over sticker or not?

Cheers!

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by ishmael

It's amazing how many people that own a Lotus or have an interest in the marque don't actually understand what Lotus is about. Lotus has never been about chasing other companies' power figures. I'm not sure that all of the new generation of owners 'get it' and that is no way intended to offend anyone. Read a little about the history of the company and things will make much more sense. I do agree the US is a different market but I don't anticipate selling 600-800 Evoras a year here will be a problem once the economy recovers. I do believe Lotus could sell the 134 hp Elise here at the right price point but profitability would be an issue I'd assume.

I see your point, but I rather see it as a good thing. It means that Lotus has built cars (111s and presumably the Evora) that are world-class and perform with the best, and as a result have a wider appeal than ever before.

Naturally, since many of us appreciate the high level of performance, we will benchmark it against other performance cars. That just means Lotus has a world-class product.


I also think the weight of the Evora is not impressive, to say the least. An Elise makes off with a mediocre engine because of its low weight, and many of us expected the Evora to have a weaker engine, but have a low weight that compensated for it, like the Elise. Maybe in the Evora's case, weight is just a number...but can weight ever really be just a number?