Evora vs Porsche Panamera

[fitfan]

^^ yup - thats basically the point i was trying to make - sports cars have now figured out how to have GT'ish comforts built into them, where 20 years ago that was not the case. just because (like in the case of a miata, boxster, or ferrrari) they have features, that sports car of old never could/would ( only found in GT cars back then) doesn't mean they are not sports cars... - and doen't make them GT's either. admitidly the lines are very blurry. a good example would be a 350/370z - i would call it a gt, "most people" call it a sports car...

alough i would really prefer if porsche didn't put electrics in the boxster top - thats just (ahem...) over the top!

[JohnnyQuest]

Originally Posted by xtn

You make good points.

So I guess the question really is this:

Is it better to select a comparison car by matching up performance as close as possible and then pointing out the usability differences? Or is it better to make the match by identifying usability qualities, and then pointing out the performance differences?

Usually magazine comparisons are done on cars that have similar usage capabilities (for example the mag will line up mid-sized four door sedansagainst each other) and then pointing out the other differences.

If we want to follow that model, we should choose the base Carrera.

xtn

It's funny how back in March on this forum, I was defending the Evora as being a true sports cars against those who were claiming it was a "family car". Now, I'm defending my claim that I don't think it will compete with the 911. Oh well....that's what makes these forums fun.....

I suspect that the Evora will probably be declared the winner in most comparison tests when it is pitted against the base Cayman. I'd guess that it will be 50-50 with magazines when the Evora goes against the Cayman S. If and when the SC Evora arrives maybe it will be put in the ring with the base 911. However, in 2011 the Cayman is supposed to be fully redesigned, get more power, and lose weight. Therefore, even when the SC Evora comes out, my money is on the Cayman S soundly beating it. Remember, the Cayman S has always been able to beat the BMW M cars despite having far less power.

It would really be nice if I turn out to be wrong. The Cayman has help the crown for a long time (rightly so IMHO). It would be nice for another car to really give it a run for its money. Just as the magazines put the Z4, 350Z, TT, and S2000 against the Cayman regardless of the price difference. The Evora will go into the same ring. Just as the magazines have already been putting the new 370Z against the Cayman S regardless of the huge price difference, the Cayman is the one to beat. Contenders have been stepping up for many years now and they all go home with bloody noses. The Evora has to step into that ring and do what no one else has been able to do since the Cayman was born. If it can beat the Cayman S, THEN maybe it will be put against the 911. But as I said, I don't think that will ever happen. Porsche knows the fight is approaching. Do you think they are just going to let some new punk come in and take their crown whey they are totally redesigning their champ for 2011? I don't think so.

[spacepig]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

The Evora has to step into that ring and do what no one else has been able to do since the Cayman was born. If it can beat the Cayman S, THEN maybe it will be put against the 911. But as I said, I don't think that will ever happen. Porsche knows the fight is approaching. Do you think they are just going to let some new punk come in and take their crown whey they are totally redesigning their champ for 2011? I don't think so.

"Beat" it how? Can I put a kid in the back seat of a Cayman? No? Then it just lost. The 911 has a back seat, but it's still a Porsche, and I'm still not an orthodontist, so it loses too. If we're talking about Nurburgring times or some other performance metric, then I don't really care, as I have no intention of ever racing the Evora. It's fast enough.

Lotus isn't trying to put Porsche out of business here. They need to sell 2000 Evoras worldwide every year. No problem. Porsche sells that many cars in a month.

[Redback]

^ +1

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by PECivil

I submit the evora is almost a morphing of the Cayman and 911, performance wise, price wise, utility wise.

The Snapper S base MSRP = $60,200

The 911 Carrera base MSRP = $76,300

You DO realize that when Porsche has installed the exact same engines in both cars the Cayman out-performs the 911 on road courses and test tracks right?

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

However, in 2011 the Cayman is supposed to be fully redesigned, get more power, and lose weight. Therefore, even when the SC Evora comes out, my money is on the Cayman S soundly beating it.

... against the Cayman S regardless of the huge price difference, the Cayman is the one to beat.

Getting my second one this month. Power bump, exterior and interior redesign,and some free added performance features.

Here she is.

Black and White.

[xtn]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

It's funny how back in March on this forum, I was defending the Evora as being a true sports cars against those who were claiming it was a "family car". Now, I'm defending my claim that I don't think it will compete with the 911. Oh well....that's what makes these forums fun.....

Oh I didn't say the Evora would successfully compete with the Carrera. I just said it should most rightly be compared to the Carrera. Then the fact that it doesn't compete would be the meat of the comparison.

Choosing the rival based on whether or not the Evora will compete is kinda lame. Choose the rival based on the closest usability match, then report on the pros/cons of either choice.

xtn

[JohnnyQuest]

Originally Posted by xtn

Oh I didn't say the Evora would successfully compete with the Carrera. I just said it should most rightly be compared to the Carrera. Then the fact that it doesn't compete would be the meat of the comparison.

Choosing the rival based on whether or not the Evora will compete is kinda lame. Choose the rival based on the closest usability match, then report on the pros/cons of either choice.

xtn

Comparing Sports Cars by how they compete is lame? Sports Cars should be compared by how many kids they can hold in the back???

I guess we have a diametrically opposed definition of lame.

The "utility" of a sports car is how well it competes. Since the Cayman has two trunks perhaps the car magazines should compare it to small SUVs or hatchbacks.

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

Sports Cars should be compared by how many kids they can hold in the back???

I guess we have a diametrically opposed definition of lame.

The "utility" of a sports car is how well it competes. Since the Cayman has two trunks perhaps the car magazines should compare it to small SUVs or hatchbacks.

This surprises you?

[bueno]

Personally, I think the Evora will do just fine in whichever market and whatever competitor you place it in and to add fuel to the fire, look at the latest report by Audi. Out of all the European cars, Porsche is second worst...even Volvo is slightly better in sales

[xtn]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

Comparing Sports Cars by how they compete is lame? Sports Cars should be compared by how many kids they can hold in the back???

I guess we have a diametrically opposed definition of lame.

The "utility" of a sports car is how well it competes. Since the Cayman has two trunks perhaps the car magazines should compare it to small SUVs or hatchbacks.

Look all I'm saying is that more often than not a magazine will compare vehicles of similar usability configurations, and then report on the performance differences.

Less often do they compare vehicles with similar performance characteristics and then report on the usability differences. They do it, but it doesn't seem to be the standard model. Like when they pit a Lambo against an Evo, for example. In that case they turned similar lap times so they threw them together and highlighted how different they were in all other areas. To a less extreme, that's what you're doing if you pit an Evora against a Cayman. You're choosing because the performance is similar.

But more often rivals are chosen for the catigory of passenger vehicle that they are, and then compared for their performance characteristics. If we want to follow this model we should put the Evora against the Carrera.

I'm not trying to say one is right and the other is wrong. Don't reply back to me as if that's what I'm doing. I'm saying it is more reasonable to choose the Carrera based on what seems to be the standard guidelines used to choose vehicles for comparisons.

xtn

[geezer]

Originally Posted by xtn

Look all I'm saying is that more often than not a magazine will compare vehicles of similar usability configurations, and then report on the performance differences.

Less often do they compare vehicles with similar performance characteristics and then report on the usability differences. They do it, but it doesn't seem to be the standard model. Like when they pit a Lambo against an Evo, for example. In that case they turned similar lap times so they threw them together and highlighted how different they were in all other areas. To a less extreme, that's what you're doing if you pit an Evora against a Cayman. You're choosing because the performance is similar.

But more often rivals are chosen for the catigory of passenger vehicle that they are, and then compared for their performance characteristics. If we want to follow this model we should put the Evora against the Carrera.

I'm not trying to say one is right and the other is wrong. Don't reply back to me as if that's what I'm doing. I'm saying it is more reasonable to choose the Carrera based on what seems to be the standard guidelines used to choose vehicles for comparisons.

xtn

I agree with this. When I'm looking at cars for myself, I look at what I intend to use the car for. If I was looking for a car that I could stuff a kid or a suitcase into on occasion, I'd cross-shop the Evora, the 911 and the GTR. Maybe a new XKR too.

If I was shopping for a dedicated track car that I was going to tear apart, I'd be comparing an Elise/Exige, an MX5, a 211 and a Cayman.

There are situations where I'd be comparing the Evora and the Cayman, but there are, realistically, probably more situations where the Evora and the 911 were both valid answers to the question being asked (and the Cayman might not be).

[Redback]

Precisely my thoughts.

When I assess a range of vehicles from which a car may potentially be selected, it's done based on functional attributes, not simply on performance statistics.

I don't just make a list of vehicles that do 0-100(kph) in less than 5 seconds, or have more than "X" horsepower, and narrow my selection based on these myopically narrow and one-dimensional statistics. That would be stupid.

Like most purchasers, I define the likely usage scenario, determine the desired performance characteristics, then look at price relativity, aesthetics and other (more esoteric) attributes. In that order...

Based on this approach, the 911 comes up as a logical competitor for the Evora. For those without the need to ever carry more than one passenger, the Cayman may be an equally valid contender.

From personal experience (I have an Elise and a Carrera) if you could combine the attributes of both into a single vehicle, you'd have a winner.

I haven't yet driven an Evora, so I'm not qualified to pass judgement, but if the magazine reviews are any guide, it seems Lotus have gone pretty close to doing just that...

[spacepig]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

The "utility" of a sports car is how well it competes. Since the Cayman has two trunks perhaps the car magazines should compare it to small SUVs or hatchbacks.

A Cayenne Turbo does 0-60 in 4.9s. So does an Elise. The Cayenne is likely quicker around Nurburgring. So do you think many people cross shop them? They have similar performance, so they must be in the same category, competing for the same customers, right?

A Cayman could do 0-60 in 2 seconds and cost $30k. It still wouldn't make my list because it would sit in the garage undriven 360 days of the year. Like it or not, the back seats matter to some people. You can't even take a weekend trip with your wife in an Elise unless you Fedex the luggage out ahead of time. Practical usability is a legitimate feature request for a sports / GT car.

You can try to convince me that the Cayman is the better car all you want. It may (or may not) be the faster car, the quicker car, the better handling car, the cheaper car, whatever. But it is not the more usable car, at least for me. So I don't care whether it "beats" an Evora in Road and Track or wherever you think it's going to get beat. Although I don't much care what any car magazine thinks, I might be mildly interested in how an Evora compares to a similarly priced 911, because that car can fill the same mission. Unfortunately for Porsche, I cannot imagine myself ever buying a 911, so for me it's out on general principle.

If road test comparisons were all that mattered to people, then there would only be one sports car on the market- whichever one was fastest. Fortunately the world doesn't work that way. We're allowed to like different stuff for our own reasons.

[JohnnyQuest]

Originally Posted by spacepig

A Cayenne Turbo does 0-60 in 4.9s. So does an Elise. The Cayenne is likely quicker around Nurburgring. So do you think many people cross shop them? They have similar performance, so they must be in the same category, competing for the same customers, right?

A Cayman could do 0-60 in 2 seconds and cost $30k. It still wouldn't make my list because it would sit in the garage undriven 360 days of the year. Like it or not, the back seats matter to some people. You can't even take a weekend trip with your wife in an Elise unless you Fedex the luggage out ahead of time. Practical usability is a legitimate feature request for a sports / GT car.

You can try to convince me that the Cayman is the better car all you want. It may (or may not) be the faster car, the quicker car, the better handling car, the cheaper car, whatever. But it is not the more usable car, at least for me. So I don't care whether it "beats" an Evora in Road and Track or wherever you think it's going to get beat. Although I don't much care what any car magazine thinks, I might be mildly interested in how an Evora compares to a similarly priced 911, because that car can fill the same mission. Unfortunately for Porsche, I cannot imagine myself ever buying a 911, so for me it's out on general principle.

If road test comparisons were all that mattered to people, then there would only be one sports car on the market- whichever one was fastest. Fortunately the world doesn't work that way. We're allowed to like different stuff for our own reasons.

If a Cayman would just sit in your drive way because you only leave the house 5 days a year without your wife and kid, it doesn't sound like the Evora is the perfect utility car for you. But what do I know.

Obviously the utility of a sports car comes into play, but as a secondary consideration.

Quote from Roger Becker interview in the August R&T regarding expectations of global sales: "...Well, that all depends on you guys giving us some great road test reports, which in turn results in huge global sales for the Evora."

But you have given Motor Trend a great idea. I can see their March 2010 cover story now...

CLASH OF THE 2+2s!! TT vs. 911 vs, Evora.

TT wins! - Retractable rear wing works perfectly as a baby changing station.
Evora takes 2nd - Refridgerated trunk keeps baby formula cold
911 comes in last - It goes like heck, but it's not as kid friendly.

[Redback]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

If a Cayman would just sit in your drive way because you only leave the house 5 days a year without your wife and kid, it doesn't sound like the Evora is the perfect utility car for you. But what do I know.

Obviously the utility of a sports car comes into play, but as a secondary consideration.

Quote from Roger Becker interview in the August R&T regarding expectations of global sales: "...Well, that all depends on you guys giving us some great road test reports, which in turn results in huge global sales for the Evora."

But you have given Motor Trend a great idea. I can see their March 2010 cover story now...

CLASH OF THE 2+2s!! TT vs. 911 vs, Evora.

TT wins! - Retractable rear wing works perfectly as a baby changing station.
Evora takes 2nd - Refridgerated trunk keeps baby formula cold
911 comes in last - It goes like heck, but it's not as kid friendly.

I'm guessing that was an attempt at humour.

Who knew...?

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

But you have given Motor Trend a great idea. I can see their March 2010 cover story now...

CLASH OF THE 2+2s!! TT vs. 911 vs, Evora.

TT wins! - Retractable rear wing works perfectly as a baby changing station.
Evora takes 2nd - Refridgerated trunk keeps baby formula cold
911 comes in last - It goes like heck, but it's not as kid friendly.

Hilarious but not very far from the truth in our new Touchy-Feelly World.

Here's a solution...

[dickedup]

As with most all new sports car offerings the Evora will be receieving what dealers like to call a... market price adjustment. Guessing at least another $10,000 in most major markets.

Hello $85,000 neuvo Lotus.

[ms355]

Wasn't this thread about the Evora vs. the Panamera?

[dickedup]

Originally Posted by ms355

Wasn't this thread about the Evora vs. the Panamera?

Americans have something we like to call... bang-for-the-buck. Go ahead. Research it thoroughly.

Where are you in the Fatherland?