New Year resolution to lose weight?

[JohnnyQuest]

The new reviews of the new Nissan 370Z are pretty spectacular. The car weighs 3175, has 332 bhp, and has better slalom numbers than the Cayman S. For the price, it's an amazing car. I give Nissan a lot of credit for actually lightening the car when the trend is to always get fatter. The new Cayman S is supposed to be in the 2975 lb range and have 320 bhp. The C6 puts out 400 bhp and weights 3170. The Z06 puts out 505 and weights about the same. The new Z4 seems to be a pig, but perhaps the rumored Z2 will be a real sports car.

The Evora will be rare and exotic, but if it doesn't underweight the competition by at least 250 lbs, something will be seriously wrong. Granted the Evora isn't on the streets yet, but it's disconcerting that it's so close and all reports still say it will be nearly 3,000 lbs. If that turns out to be true, will this car sell? I think the competition will eat it alive for a less money. Can the handling really be head and shoulders above the competition with equal weight? It will also be slower and won't have a pedigree engine.

Other than exotic looks and exclusivity what will it have to justify the higher price?

[EliseAtLeast]

370Z is already showing up in many dealerships. Its not really that light if you go with the sports pkg and add a few more options but at least Nissan really made an effort in trying to keep it light.

[Tuna]

It might surprise a few people to discover that Lotus don't make their cars out of some magic pixie dust that isn't available to other car manufacturers. If you want to build to Porsche levels of quality and comfort, which is what people are demanding, then you end up with similar weight. Aluminium may weigh less for a given thickness of metal, but you need more of it to get equivalent torsional strength.

The clever part of the Evora will hopefully be in the ride and handling, and in the quality of the chassis - reputedly 60% stiffer than the Porsche, the car should be better able to carry speed through corners and if Lotus' engineers live up to their reputation, better able to communicate back to the driver.

Wait until the reviews come in and then decide if Lotus have used the weight in the Evora well or not.

[...m...]

...i think that as GTR-type active suspension and active differentials come into widespread use, lotus will increasingly find its traditional advantages of light weight and exceptional passive chassis engineering alone no longer provide the dramatic handling edge they once did...just as threshold braking eventually succumbed to superhumanly computer-modulated ABS, lotus may retain the benefits of mechanical simplicity and comparatively inexpensive maintenance, but is destined to eventually see its passive performance eclipsed by much heavier and more complicated cars which offer better power and handling, both...

...there's a lot we don't know about long-term plans for the evora and esprit, but i wouldn't be surprised if heavier cars are integral to lotus' future by necessity...

[Tuna]

Lotus were experimenting with electronic active suspension back in the early nineties on an Esprit chassis. They also consult with many of their clients (something like nearly 200 different companies/projects!) on a wide range of high tech chassis and drivetrain solutions. Don't for one minute think that they use a 'simple' passive chassis because they don't have the eningeering skills to produce something far more complex.

As ever there is a compromise, but active suspension cannot make a mule into a thoroughbread. Nor can you just add more complexity to make up for the weight of additional complexity - it becomes entirely self defeating. The laws of physics tell you that the heavier the car, the harder it becomes to make it start, stop and change direction. You might be able to hide that with gadgetry, but when you're driving on the limits you don't want to find out the hard way that a heavy car is still a heavy car.

As for the future, expect it to be strong, light and modular. Lotus will continue to focus on rapidly designed niche models. By the time the Esprit replacement is launched, we should see some very exciting drivetrain technologies - expect low or zero emissions drivetrains and ever higher fuel efficiencies, yet retaining the stunning performance typical for Lotus.

[darkSol]

Nothing would make me happier than if Lotus had just purposely released "fat" numbers and that the Evora is actually 2500lbs

[...m...]

Originally Posted by Tuna

Don't for one minute think that they use a 'simple' passive chassis because they don't have the eningeering skills to produce something far more complex.

...of course not; lotus' world-class engineering has always kept abreast of the leading edge of automotive technology and there's no reason to expect that to change...rather, i expect the balancing act between lightweight simplicity and mechanical complexity to shift as heavier active systems develop enough to eclipse the performance advantages traditionally held by lighter passive systems, and lotus' offerings to bulk up commensurately alongside that shift...

...that doesn't necessarily mean that we'll see big heavy lotus cars running amongst a pack of heavyweight typical industry vehicles, but i think it does mean that we'll see heavier lotus cars than we've become accustomed: lightweight chassis tempered by complex systems where it makes sense...

[Bleu Omdurman]

Originally Posted by ...m...

...but i think it does mean that we'll see heavier lotus cars than we've become accustomed: lightweight chassis tempered by complex systems where it makes sense...

I'm not sure what insight you are sharing. I think this is rather obvious. Take the motorsport elise and compare it to its current brother, the Exige S.

there is about 200kgs of difference between them. So I agree, cars have grown, and will continue to grow, heavier with time. I do believe that Lotus will stay true to their strategy of performance through lightwieght and continue to be the lighter car at a performance range. Because all cars will trend heavier.

One the flip side, I would not be surprised to see car change dramatically, given the changing tides in power plants, and the wieghts shift accordingly. However, Lotus will be, IMHO, the lighter car.

[MickOpalak]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

The new reviews of the new Nissan 370Z are pretty spectacular. I give Nissan a lot of credit for actually lightening the car when the trend is to always get fatter.

According to Car&Driver its actually 33 lbs heavier than the 350Z.

[Gizmo3000]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

Granted the Evora isn't on the streets yet, but it's disconcerting that it's so close and all reports still say it will be nearly 3,000 lbs. If that turns out to be true, will this car sell? I think the competition will eat it alive for a less money. Can the handling really be head and shoulders above the competition with equal weight? It will also be slower and won't have a pedigree engine.

Other than exotic looks and exclusivity what will it have to justify the higher price?

I think it's very safe to say that the Evora will probably be the lightest 2+2 of all the 2010 model cars made. Lotus is theoretically making a larger 2+2 version of the Elise, and any additional weight is added due to a larger engine, added luxury features and perhaps added safety features (like real bumpers??)
So it'll no doubt be just as light, or lighter than the competition.
and of course, being from Lotus, it'll handle just dandy.

So the only real issue left may be achieving a decent power-to-weight ratio, to which they are at a slight disadvantage.

However, you really have to take a step back and rethink who they're marketing the Evora towards - and it's not track junkies or speed freaks, bur rather, the 95% of buyers who just want a bitchin looking sports car.
- you know, the stereotypical Porsche owner who cares more about having a Sat radio/navigation and heated seats and knows nothing more than the fact that their car has 6 cylinders.
(no offense to the minority of porsche owners who are true car-buffs)

[Wareal]

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest

...The C6 puts out 400 bhp and weights 3170. The Z06 puts out 505 and weights about the same...

FYI the 2008 and 2009 LS3 in the C6 puts out 430bhp (436bhp with bimodal exhaust option).

[JohnnyQuest]

Originally Posted by Tuna

It might surprise a few people to discover that Lotus don't make their cars out of some magic pixie dust that isn't available to other car manufacturers. If you want to build to Porsche levels of quality and comfort, which is what people are demanding, then you end up with similar weight. Aluminium may weigh less for a given thickness of metal, but you need more of it to get equivalent torsional strength...

Very good points. Al is so much more flexible than steel that you need more of it to retain stiffness. Al framed dirtbikes weigh no less than their steel framed counterparts. However, steel body panels do weigh more than composite/fiberglass ones. How much more? I’d expect more than 150 lbs, but I guess not.

Originally Posted by Tuna

…, but active suspension cannot make a mule into a thoroughbread. Nor can you just add more complexity to make up for the weight of additional complexity - it becomes entirely self defeating. The laws of physics tell you that the heavier the car, the harder it becomes to make it start, stop and change direction. You might be able to hide that with gadgetry, but when you're driving on the limits you don't want to find out the hard way that a heavy car is still a heavy car…

I couldn’t have said that better.

The reason I don’t have an Elise (after being on the initial waiting list in 2003 and lusting after one for so long) is because it was too “pure” for my purposes. I rented one and drove it about 250 miles. It was amazingly fun, but a bit more or a track car than my needs. Without the window rattles, the creaks, the groans, and sounds I hadn’t heard since I sold my last TR6 in 1986, I could possibly have ended up with one. But preventing those things costs weight and would detract from the Elise’s purpose.
My Z4 is as far in the other direction as I want to go. My next sports car needs to be lighter and purer. That’s why I think the Evora (actually a GT) may be the perfect car for me (When it comes out in convertible form). I’m hoping it will be what Ferrari used to be before Enzo lost control and died. The Cayman is about the best sports car ever made IMHO. It straddles the line between performance and refinement pretty much right where I’d draw the line. However, I want a convertible, and I hate the looks of the Boxster.
The strangest thing to me is that Lotus is proposing to forgo (to an extent) their most basic tradition of staying light to compete head on with the competition. However, their low sales goal of 2,000 cars makes that strange. Why make a car to directly compete but then keep sales projections so low as if to say, “we know it won’t really be able to compete”? How can they invest all that money in R&D and only sell 2,000? Without investing a ton of money it won’t be able to compete. It’s a catch 22: If it really is that good as straddling the line, everyone will want one. However, if is isn’t – if it gives up that famous Lotus handling and still doesn’t offer the “creature comforts” of the competition - maybe 2,000 is too optimistic.
As stated above, we’ll have to wait for the road tests. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.

[Tuna]

As I understand it, sales projections of 2000 give a good low break even point, and don't require huge investment in a production line that might end up running at half capacity if they cannot reach their targets. It's always possible to increase production (though it does take some time), it's much, much harder to reduce it and survive.

The Elise was designed with production figures that turned out to be one tenth of what it achieved.

In other news, Lotus have just stated in an interview with the Financial Times that they will be unveiling a hybrid car at the Geneva motorshow in March. It will use range extending technology to give high performance as well as exceptional fuel consumption. Though they have not stated what the car might be, the press are guessing it will be an Evora, though the APX four door concept car has been suggested as an (outside) possibility.

[Murix]

Originally Posted by darkSol

Nothing would make me happier than if Lotus had just purposely released "fat" numbers and that the Evora is actually 2500lbs

+1 I would put my name on the waiting list if that happened. Even 2700lbs would make me take a long hard look.

[JohnnyQuest]

Originally Posted by Murix

+1 I would put my name on the waiting list if that happened. Even 2700lbs would make me take a long hard look.

2700 is the magic number. There is no reason, law of physics, or excuse for being one pound over that number.

2900+ is the super model who puts on 25 lbs. She's still amazing, but it's disappointing how close she would be to perfection with a little hard work.

If I'm going to drop $80k, I don't want close. I want perfect. 2700 is not a stretch. For the Evora, 2700 is going to the gym 4 days a week and only having one scoop of ice cream.

2900+ is marrying the rich guy, ignoring the gym, and eating ice-cream when the mood strikes.

The Cayman RS is rumored to be in the works. It will be in the 2700 range. Come on Lotus, I've waitied 50 years for this car. Don't screw this up. Opportunity seldom knocks.