Any Pes->CharlieX updaters? opinions wanted

[brokenboy]

I have the PES tune on my BWR. Had it at the track for at least 1K miles often in 90+ degree weather. 4K miles on the road. Never had a hiccup. I guess I have really strong weak ankles. I've been out with a bunch of other PES guys and never heard a single complaint. PES must ship different tunes to Seattle than other places. Lucky us!

I hear stuff like "The CharlieX tune is a FI tune but PES is a hacked NA tune." So is Charlie saying that he started with code for a Lotus FI ECU from the factory? That's confusing to me since he has tunes for a '05, but Lotus never sold a FI 05, and the '06+ code is different for DBW. So where did this mysterious FI tune come from?

Overall, I guess I just feel like I hear a lot of vauge putdowns toward the PES tune without a real reason why it matters. Why do I care that the CharlieX tune has greater injector scaling range and more MAF range? Are you saying the PES tune actually hits a limit on these and stops being able to control the engine up at the top of the airflow or fuel flow range? If that's true and testable, well then consider me sold. If I need an intercooler, a TVS blower, and a 100 octane tune to care, then I don't.

I'd happily pay my $$ to CharlieX and swap my PES for his tune if I knew what it did for me on a BWR SC. I'd really happily pay it if I am promised and get HP. I'm not swapping for drivability issues because I have none. Anyone have a graph of the same car with a PES tune and a CharlieX tune with both of them in the same condition (not 10K on the PES ECU since a reset and a fresh CharlieX?). There's a CharlieX vs. PES dyno in another thread but that car seems to have issues and gained 40HP going from PES to CharlieX. If that's always true then Charlie should really invest in getting a PES dyno'd so he can post the results and see the $650 flow in over and over. Heck, even just give me a table of how much leaner the CharlieX runs at a couple points in the tune and I might be happy, or an analysis of why they do things wrong in places.

I'm not putting the CharlieX tune down at all- heck, I really, really want to believe it would get me 40HP since I am happy with the PES tune right now. It's clear the CharlieX tune does work fine. But in my experience and lots of others, the PES works fine too. Really solid answers as to the benefits would help sales a lot I imagine.

I'll do the Dynos if someone sends me a CharlieX tune for an '07 for a day or two. Charlie, any chance you want to loan me an ECU and we can agree on a test plan that is well planned out and scientific?

[Demonized]

Originally Posted by brokenboy

I have the PES tune on my BWR. Had it at the track for at least 1K miles often in 90+ degree weather. 4K miles on the road. Never had a hiccup. I guess I have really strong weak ankles. I've been out with a bunch of other PES guys and never heard a single complaint. PES must ship different tunes to Seattle than other places. Lucky us!

I hear stuff like "The CharlieX tune is a FI tune but PES is a hacked NA tune." So is Charlie saying that he started with code for a Lotus FI ECU from the factory? That's confusing to me since he has tunes for a '05, but Lotus never sold a FI 05, and the '06+ code is different for DBW. So where did this mysterious FI tune come from?

Overall, I guess I just feel like I hear a lot of vauge putdowns toward the PES tune without a real reason why it matters. Why do I care that the CharlieX tune has greater injector scaling range and more MAF range? Are you saying the PES tune actually hits a limit on these and stops being able to control the engine up at the top of the airflow or fuel flow range? If that's true and testable, well then consider me sold. If I need an intercooler, a TVS blower, and a 100 octane tune to care, then I don't.

I'd happily pay my $$ to CharlieX and swap my PES for his tune if I knew what it did for me on a BWR SC. I'd really happily pay it if I am promised and get HP. I'm not swapping for drivability issues because I have none. Anyone have a graph of the same car with a PES tune and a CharlieX tune with both of them in the same condition (not 10K on the PES ECU since a reset and a fresh CharlieX?). There's a CharlieX vs. PES dyno in another thread but that car seems to have issues and gained 40HP going from PES to CharlieX. If that's always true then Charlie should really invest in getting a PES dyno'd so he can post the results and see the $650 flow in over and over. Heck, even just give me a table of how much leaner the CharlieX runs at a couple points in the tune and I might be happy, or an analysis of why they do things wrong in places.

I'm not putting the CharlieX tune down at all- heck, I really, really want to believe it would get me 40HP since I am happy with the PES tune right now. It's clear the CharlieX tune does work fine. But in my experience and lots of others, the PES works fine too. Really solid answers as to the benefits would help sales a lot I imagine.

I'll do the Dynos if someone sends me a CharlieX tune for an '07 for a day or two. Charlie, any chance you want to loan me an ECU and we can agree on a test plan that is well planned out and scientific?

To answer a few of the questions I believe I know the answer to;

The CharlieX tune is a "FI" tune becuase it was built from the ground up by Charlie for the FI application, where-as the PES tune is a modified NA (stock) tune.

Also, the problem with the PES tune is that it seems to go rich over time.

If you're having no problems, that's great... You could take it to a dyno, and see how your A/F curve looks, if they're in the 12's chances are you'd gain horsepower with a CharlieX tune.

(I also HIGHLY DOUBT you'll get any guarantee of a horsepower gain.)

[ZJChaser]

Originally Posted by Demonized

The CharlieX tune is a "FI" tune becuase it was built from the ground up by Charlie for the FI application, where-as the PES tune is a modified NA (stock) tune.

I believe the difference there is actually that charlie uses the higher resolution map from the factory FI tunes where as the PES uses the map from the factory NA tune which is a lower resolution map....or something like that.

[dma550]

heh, I'm such a noob for starting the thread and not updating it. I am an updater myself. I find the new map gives a much smoother transition from idle to full power. My description of the PES tune found me having to hold the throttle down, and overcoming some sort of hump to get everything singing. Like driving a peaky 2-stroke motoX bike. Charlies tune, for me, has made a very smooth flow from 2K-redline without this feeling of lag or peakiness. It was worth the money for me. The car does feel faster, but I can't tell if that's a factor of the smoothness.

As I learned racing enduro motorcycles, all the power in the world doesn't do you a lick of good if you can't use it. My little KTM could run circles around the big bore bikes because their HP wasn't controllable. Mine had it where I needed it, when I needed it.

[brokenboy]

Originally Posted by Demonized

The CharlieX tune is a "FI" tune becuase it was built from the ground up by Charlie for the FI application, where-as the PES tune is a modified NA (stock) tune.

This still makes no sense to me. There is no way that Charlie totally re-wrote the ECU code from the ground up. He didn't re-write the traction control, OBDII, and subroutines to control all of the outputs. He modified some existing code. Maybe he figured out how to add more resolution to a map. Maybe he got his hands on code that already had more resolution and then just had to tweak the table. Either way works. But his ECU has access to no more data than any other ECU. The ECU still doesn't know boost, nor does it gain a wideband O2. Even Lotus didn't rewrite the whole ECU for a FI application. Only a small number of changes are needed and you collapse as a company if you keep rewriting all your code anytime you need a 1% change.

One of the things in this whole situation is wondering if he has access to the actual source code for the ECU. If you open up an ECU and pull the program data off, it's all in assembly code. It's possible to do stuff with that, but wow is that time consuming. What's "easy" is to find the tables that are used and replace the data in the table. If Charlie has an unfair advantage over everyone else because he has access to the actual source code and thus can write whole new routines and really modify the way the ECU works, I'd think he'd say so. But even with that access, no way he re-wrote everything. I bet he's come nowhere near changing even 1% of the lines of code in the ECU. Which is absolutely fine and all we need. I just want to know why his changes are better than other companies.

There's really no reason for Charlie to not be really clear about his advantages. It's not like we can go out and make our own tunes better on his info or that PES can make theirs better. I work for a small company that sells stuff to hobbyists as well, and we don't just say "our product is better because it's black." We say "it's better because it's black and black dissipates heat better. Heat is the enemy of motors and electronics, so this simple decision makes the product more reliable." I'd love to see that more with this stuff.

Originally Posted by Demonized

Also, the problem with the PES tune is that it seems to go rich over time.

This is a good advantage the Charile might have. Since he knows the ECU in and out, I'd love to know how this is possible, since the goals in the ECU have been changed, it's not a situation where the ECU is being lied to with a piggyback. Nothing about the goals of the ECU changes over time, so I don't know why it would have a different target 1K miles later. But I'm happy to be wrong, and that would be clear advantage if it's true.

I'll try and go out and datalog AFR on my 4K+ mile PES tune then reset the ECU and do it again and see if I'm finding that.

[brokenboy]

Originally Posted by dma550

I find the new map gives a much smoother transition from idle to full power. My description of the PES tune found me having to hold the throttle down, and overcoming some sort of hump to get everything singing.

Thanks David. That's the best description of real world feel I've ever heard of. I totally understand power vs control. I've felt a hump or lag in the PES tune a few times, although never on the track. On the street I do feel a lag probably 10% of the time I shift when I'm at near WOT. I always thought it was the bypass valve, but it would be great if it's actually part of the tune and is easily fixable.

[Demonized]

What ZJ said is probably more on spot than what I said, anyway, there are some threads around that go into painful detail about how the ECU in our Lotus works.

[ZJChaser]

Originally Posted by brokenboy

nor does it gain a wideband O2.

Been done.

[charliex]

Originally Posted by brokenboy

This still makes no sense to me. There is no way that Charlie totally re-wrote the ECU code from the ground up. He didn't re-write the traction control, OBDII, and subroutines to control all of the outputs. He modified some existing code. Maybe he figured out how to add more resolution to a map. Maybe he got his hands on code that already had more resolution and then just had to tweak the table. Either way works. But his ECU has access to no more data than any other ECU. The ECU still doesn't know boost, nor does it gain a wideband O2. Even Lotus didn't rewrite the whole ECU for a FI application. Only a small number of changes are needed and you collapse as a company if you keep rewriting all your code anytime you need a 1% change.

First off,. I'm not really sure why people post this stuff, instead of just asking its a bunch of assumptions that sound like factual information, even though we've posted it all before over and over. I realise it happens all the time, so i should know better by now

I spent almost 3 years reverse engineering the binary code into assembly language, its ones of the things i do for a living, a simple thing like an ecu can easily be converted to a recompilable source code. I used to post the code til things got so political on the forum, i do often post updates about where i've gotten with it, its all out there for the reading. including how i started, what maps i started with, some of the maps i got wrong etc.

I have a solid background in computer and electronic engineering, i write software and design my own hardware, for myself and other companies.

I did modify the traction control, there is virtually no difference between the OBDII code so there is no need to change it, evern though i did add in a few of my own routines for diagnostics, i don't use the obd ii for tuning, i use CAN line.


The tables on the NA car are set for an NA MAF/LOAD range, on a FI card its expanded, the tables are a maximum of 32x32 but its not all used, the FI used more, i've posted this in more detail before. I recalibrated the map to use more rows for the FI . But more than that PES just made a fundamental mistake in some of the assumptions they made about the ignition tables, if i were more cynical i'd say its odd that its the exact same mistake i made to the letter, very early on, and i had posted the wrong maps on monkeytuner, and never corrected them.

I added code for things i needed, like the original red ecu reflash, dual maps etc. things the original ecu doesn't have, i also wrote all my own tuning software.

We do use a wideband O2 sensor, in fact i'm at the dyno right now working on a car that uses a wideband to feedback to the ecu to control the fuelling, again you could ask instead of making an incorrect guess based on something you don't know about.

One of the things in this whole situation is wondering if he has access to the actual source code for the ECU. If you open up an ECU and pull the program data off, it's all in assembly code. It's possible to do stuff with that, but wow is that time consuming. What's "easy" is to find the tables that are used and replace the data in the table. If Charlie has an unfair advantage over everyone else because he has access to the actual source code and thus can write whole new routines and really modify the way the ECU works, I'd think he'd say so. But even with that access, no way he re-wrote everything. I bet he's come nowhere near changing even 1% of the lines of code in the ECU. Which is absolutely fine and all we need. I just want to know why his changes are better than other companies.

Again i don't understand this sentiment, you go off on some wild goose chase about having source code, lotus doesn't even have all the source code to the ecu, they only get part of it, as does porsche, lamborghini etc. I spent three years disassembling the code.

Lots of tuning companies i know have had 'unfair' advantage to the ecu's , they get the a2l/damos files, but they're not complaining and neither are their customers.

My changes are better because i'm not a tuning shop using other peoples off the shelf software, i specialise in reverse engineering for the last 20 odd years. So i reversed and understood the whole process of how the ecu works, not just loaded the binary into winols and found what i thought to be the fuel/spark maps.

PES just added as much as they could into the fuel map, and thats it, the standard NA tune does not have injector scalling , so i added it , you cannot add enough fuel to the NA maps to suit a proper FI application, its not possible.

You're more than welcome to come along to a dyno session and chat with me about the process, i'll show you the software and the process, i do for anyone whos geninuely interested and not just having a one sided internet flame war.

There's really no reason for Charlie to not be really clear about his advantages.

there is no reason you can't search the forums and find the umpteen times i've posted this, and my work log on monkey as well as the fuel maps i posted from PES and the explanation as to why its wrong, instead you're just jumping to a conclusion that i haven't done what you want me to do, therefore i'm probably not doing it.

It's not like we can go out and make our own tunes better on his info or that PES can make theirs better. I work for a small company that sells stuff to hobbyists as well, and we don't just say "our product is better because it's black." We say "it's better because it's black and black dissipates heat better. Heat is the enemy of motors and electronics, so this simple decision makes the product more reliable." I'd love to see that more with this stuff.

my product is better because we spent more time on it, have a greater understand of the ecu, i'm an actual software/hardware engineer and not an end user tuning shop who relys on, and buys in tuning software that someone like me wrote.
All my hardware and tuning is bespoke. I write software for standaloen ecus, piggybacks and other stock ECU's including lambo, porsche, etc. The lotus is not the only one. I also reverse engineer other software for other companies, who've lost the code for their projects or its writting in an obsolete language or hardware, thats what i do,.

This is a good advantage the Charile might have. Since he knows the ECU in and out, I'd love to know how this is possible, since the goals in the ECU have been changed, it's not a situation where the ECU is being lied to with a piggyback. Nothing about the goals of the ECU changes over time, so I don't know why it would have a different target 1K miles later. But I'm happy to be wrong, and that would be clear advantage if it's true.

I'll try and go out and datalog AFR on my 4K+ mile PES tune then reset the ECU and do it again and see if I'm finding that.

Please don't take it as a flame this post, i got up very early and went to bed late, its a heatwave , i'm actually at the tripoint dyno and supposed to be tuning a 460RWHP car with the stock ecu that runs very well, PES can't do that, there are a few people on the forums who've used my services for other projects, but they tried PES first, because i don't really like to promote my services.

Feel free to call me and ask questions, i try to very available for that, i'm not gonna give up the secret sauce but i will explain it as much as i can.

Also talk to VF or Sinclaires in the UK who use my tuning software, or the people using my software for the standalones i also write the engine management software for .


hope this helps answer your questions.

now back to the dyno before frank kills me

cheers!

[charliex]

heres one of the threads where i chat about it
Tune comparisons

[brokenboy]

Originally Posted by ZJChaser

Been done.

Really? Just flashing the ECU adds a wideband O2? Sweet. I'm in. Where do I send my money?

Of course I'm aware you can add a WB O2 to the car and even to the ECU. But neither the PES or CharlieX tunes for the BWR require this or as far as I know use it.

[Demonized]

Originally Posted by brokenboy

Really? Just flashing the ECU adds a wideband O2? Sweet. I'm in. Where do I send my money?

Of course I'm aware you can add a WB O2 to the car and even to the ECU. But neither the PES or CharlieX tunes for the BWR require this or as far as I know use it.

So he writes answers to your questions, and you thank him by insulting him.

[brokenboy]

Demonized, ZJChaser answered a "question" without even reading my post and got it horribly, totally wrong. And I wasn't replying or quoting Charlie. Did you go up and figure out the context either?

I haven't found the fanboys to be much help here or elsewhere on the forum. Charlie rox, everybody else sux, you're an idiot for choosing otherwise. They say stuff like "Charlie wrote the ECU from the ground up" when even Charlie says he disassembled it and only changed some things. Heck, even Lotus doesn't get to write it from the ground up since they buy the ECU from some vendor in Italy. So why should I believe vauge, hyperbolic statements that are clearly false?

On the other hand, I really appreciate Charlie taking some time to actually read my questions and giving at least some answers. I'm actually left with more questions now. For instance, I had no idea his SC tune tweaks traction control, and I'd love to know how it makes it better. But it appears I need to do a lot of searching. I can't find a single reference to TC tweaks except this thread, but I'm told it's all out there. I'll look around some more though before I ask.

As a quick FYI, I bought the PES tune a year ago because it was 40% cheaper than Charlie and nobody had a solid reason why it was worse. And I looked around, I promise. I don't spend $400 or $650 without research. As you can see from this thread, I still don't have a perfect, solid list of reasons. I do know that if I had a 400 HP FI system, then it appears Charlie has the only ECU with enough dynamic range to deal with that. But I don't have a 400HP monster. I have a 220 WHP, low PSI supercharger. Still not sure that I need injector scaling in order to use all of that HP.

If I do know one thing from my own experience, if two companies offer the same product, one for $100 and one for $1000, the people that buy the $1K item will be vocal, belligerent, and absolute that theirs is better, while the $100 people will generally be silent as they just go about their lives with a product that works. Not saying that is the case here, but there is a clear price difference and I'm trying to suss out what is real and what is perception due to the premium price.

Final note: I still have $650 burning a hole in my pocket. Someone please PROVE to me it's better. I promise I'll be digging around myself trying to figure it out too.

[ACE51]

my eyes hurt.

I do notice a small "lag" with the way my car is set up (PES tune with cup airbox, stage 2 exhaust) sometimes, feels horrible almost like I'm trying to nail it in a corner with a automatic transmission car.

I get hickups and stalling with my car, but maybe its cause PES can't give a tune for the cup airbox where as Charlie can if you talk to the guy personally!

I now know what I'm asking for Christmas.

Don't mean to be all political just telling you what I feel in the pants

[Demonized]

Originally Posted by brokenboy

Demonized, ZJChaser answered a "question" without even reading my post and got it horribly, totally wrong. And I wasn't replying or quoting Charlie. Did you go up and figure out the context either?

I haven't found the fanboys to be much help here or elsewhere on the forum. Charlie rox, everybody else sux, you're an idiot for choosing otherwise. They say stuff like "Charlie wrote the ECU from the ground up" when even Charlie says he disassembled it and only changed some things. Heck, even Lotus doesn't get to write it from the ground up since they buy the ECU from some vendor in Italy. So why should I believe vauge, hyperbolic statements that are clearly false?

On the other hand, I really appreciate Charlie taking some time to actually read my questions and giving at least some answers. I'm actually left with more questions now. For instance, I had no idea his SC tune tweaks traction control, and I'd love to know how it makes it better. But it appears I need to do a lot of searching. I can't find a single reference to TC tweaks except this thread, but I'm told it's all out there. I'll look around some more though before I ask.

As a quick FYI, I bought the PES tune a year ago because it was 40% cheaper than Charlie and nobody had a solid reason why it was worse. And I looked around, I promise. I don't spend $400 or $650 without research. As you can see from this thread, I still don't have a perfect, solid list of reasons. I do know that if I had a 400 HP FI system, then it appears Charlie has the only ECU with enough dynamic range to deal with that. But I don't have a 400HP monster. I have a 220 WHP, low PSI supercharger. Still not sure that I need injector scaling in order to use all of that HP.

If I do know one thing from my own experience, if two companies offer the same product, one for $100 and one for $1000, the people that buy the $1K item will be vocal, belligerent, and absolute that theirs is better, while the $100 people will generally be silent as they just go about their lives with a product that works. Not saying that is the case here, but there is a clear price difference and I'm trying to suss out what is real and what is perception due to the premium price.

Final note: I still have $650 burning a hole in my pocket. Someone please PROVE to me it's better. I promise I'll be digging around myself trying to figure it out too.

Sorry, I thought what you said was in reply to Charlie, my bad.

[Overlander23]

Just wanted to weigh in with another tale. I had the PES tune on my '05 BWR install for about a year and a half.

I just got CharlieX's flash back and installed, let it idle for 10 minutes, then took it for a spin. First result are impressive. I don't think there's any more power overall, but the immediacy of... everything, is what impresses.

With my old PES tune I had a few issues. One, was a slight lag in throttle response that I always attributed to the supercharger bypass valve, or at least I hoped that's what it was. Two, was slight detonation at around 6000 rpm at WOT... always. And the third, until recently, was a CEL that was throwing a rich code, which I'm sure was probably rich at idle, though why I didn't know. Every time I cleared it, it was back within three starts.

I ran only one track day in that year and a half, a hot day at Big Willow. And I ran 100 octane because I never felt fully comfortable with the tune. With the PES tune, the car did fine. No pinging. No worries at all, maybe a little throttle lag, but I was used to it and I'm generally smoother on track than testing acceleration on the street. My CEL even went out for good after that day... again, no idea why, but maybe it was an injector fully seating itself after the workout. I dunno.

There's no 100 octane for hundreds of miles of where I live, but early on during a trip up the coast to Palo Alto I stopped on the way back in San Jose to fill up with 100 octane before heading down the Coast Highway. The PES tune was great on the expensive juice. No running problems, and I even got 34 mpg on the way back with some spirited driving. But on the California swag that is 91 octane, the PES tune was just adequate... with reservations in the back of my mind. It's why I only ran one track day in that period. I was never quite sure.

I'll go on record saying that Fred was very helpful in trying to help me out, but we never did resolve it. We weren't sure whether it was my car or the tune. The ECU even went back to PES at some point for a reflash that changed my detonation problem from 3500rpm (originally) to 6000rpm. But I recognize that my car seems to be unique with this issue, as I've never heard anyone else with the PES tune having the same problem.

Suspecting that my car was fine, I ended rolling the dice with Charlie's tune. It couldn't be worse... and at the end of the day if my car exhibited the same problems as with the PES tune, I'd know it was my car.

Cut to half an hour ago, Charlie's tune installed. Car started right up and settled into an instantly smooth idle, though I never really had problems with the PES tune here.

Out on the street the change is dramatic enough to be noticeably different. Again, I'm sure the power levels are the same, but Charlie's tune feels stronger because it kicks harder and more immediately. Apparently, the supercharger really doesn't lag (though flooring the throttle at highway speeds in 6th will reveal a very slight lag which I'm sure is the throttle bypass valve closing.) Imagine my surprise.

The new tune really feels like a factory tune, smooth, predictable, solid. That's not to say PES's felt cobbled together, but it certainly wasn't as... elegant.

I'm sure the tune will only get better... I will, obviously, keep an eye on it, but even now my detonation issues at 6000 rpm have gone away. No CEL light... yet, but I'm not expecting any. We'll see.

At the end of the day, with my particular car, if I had to do it all again I would go with Charlie's tune (but that wasn't really an option at the time). And again, in my particular case, even after having paid for a PES tune, I'd still go with Charlie's tune, which is what I did.