ECU problem

[charliex]

I don't understand the part about ecu only doing throttle and dash, its either running the engine or it isn't, the throttle is fairly complex and has a lot of internal checks and balances to make sure it all runs ok. if the ecu thinks somethings up, it'll limit the opening.

[dereklburt]

This was the latest email from Matt at Monkeywrench:

It is one of AEM’s EMS standalone engine management systems. It’s not the universal model which is needlessly overpriced in my opinion. The stock ECU will have no control of fuel, spark or VVT. Fuel mixture will not be a problem. The stock ECU will be running throttle, some electrical functions and the dash. My tuning this weekend will include logging throttle position during all conditions. If I have any concern about the DBW not responding the way we want it to I will definitely discuss with you. Many simpler cars have a simple pedal follower program for the DBW and I’m hoping that is what the Elise has. If that is the case then the DBW is not a problem. As an absolute worst case we could backdate to the cable throttle but I think that will be unnecessary.

What do you think? I have been worried about the Drive by wire (DBW). Based on Charlie's last comment it appears that this could be a real issue. I have expressed this to Matt, but he seems convinced that will work and won't matter. COMMENTS PLEASE

[jim-clayton]

Your in a tough spot.

You need a tune without a piggy back.

You need your factory wiring to be in perfect condition.

Take a look at who's running a successful turbo and how they got there.

[dereklburt]

Charlie,
It appears that it is just the tune that is the problem at this point in time. The stand alone option is appealing mainly because it had the potential to correct the problem now and I don't want problems on a 2000mile drive.

Also I was told it had an advantage because I could have infinite boost settings and the stand alone would automatically adjust. It would be nice to have both a low boost setting for autocross and everyday driving and be able to hit a high boost for all out power only when wanted. I do not know for sure but that was one thing that I was told that could not be done with just an ECU tune. Is this true? Can you do a high and low boost setting using my boost controller or would it need to be tuned to one boost level and left there? I realize this is not an issue on a supercharged car as they have a pulley and the boost is "set".

Either way, I would rather just have one high boost level and have it running right than infinite adjust ability for boost and not running correctly. Any comment on what Matt is proposing? I emailed him your comment about the drive by wire as I heard that there could be issues from other places as well. I don't want him to do anything if it is going to mess things up. I know he was anxious to try because he really wants to fix it and get it running right. I just don't want to deal with and can't afford additional problems.

He also mentioned worst case scenario, converting it to the cable throttle system which I am sure would work with the AEM but might be a huge job?

The other option is to just put it back the way it was with the Greedy emanage piggy back (the way the Hass kits originally come), drive it out there, and have you tune it. However, the Greedy emanage would have to be removed. Thoughts? In your experience do you think this solution with the AEM might work or will I have issues?

As I said before, I just want to get it fixed.

[kverges]

Yo, everyone, there are a number of folks happy with turbos- the FF setup seems to be generally OK and my car is just fine.

To this day I will never understand why I can drive my turbo car with the eManage just fine and have been doing so for 3 years come this summer. Other than a ho-hum idle and the fact that I cannot tune VVT, the car runs great. Now I did have to make a number of changes that took time to figure out but in retrospect are really easy (like slotting the manifold and using proper fasteners on the turbo flange).

One thing to carefully consider - is your eManage one of the early units subject to recall? The early units had improper input impedance for the injector circuit and would never run right without resistors in parallel to simulate the injector impedance. Easy fix - just wire in 12 Ohm resistors to ground in parallel with the injector inputs to the eManage.

[charliex]

matt would know if its ok, since he's aware of what he's planning to do when he says the ecu will run the throttle, i don't know the specifics there.

If he's planning to pick up the pedal position sensor which is prior to the ecu, or somehow let the ecu just run the DBW controller and not be in control of anything else, that seems unlikely to me since the ecu will be asking the engine all sorts of questions and if it doesn't respond the way it expects, it'll throw codes, and most of those codes will put it it in limp home mode, which in turn will cause the throttle software to limit the range since it'll fail the tests.

changing out the ecu, dbw to a manual and all that seems a long way to go about things, but if you're not near someone who can do it without going that route.

the efi usa guys took a couple of years to get the DBW stuff sorted out, for one reason or another, so i'd go with them if you're going standalone and contact kris@drs.

[Monkeywrench]

Some background on the car. It is indeed a Hass turbo car. Whoever installed the kit originally did some "creative" things, especially with the wiring. At the customer's request we've addressed some of the various issues that the car had before it was brought to us. I wouldn't quite call it a basket case when it arrived but it was close.

Before these current electrical issues cropped up we had not done ANY wiring work on this car besides removing a water injection system and correcting a gauge install. The car exhibited the symptoms that Derek mentioned and worse. I have no idea what happened to this car before it was brought to us but things are not right.

We got the car running ok on the stock ECU again after cleaning the ECU connectors. The fuel pump circuit is functioning as it should but we did bypass some of the stock wiring to make that happen. Many people run larger gauge wire to high flow pumps to keep the voltage up so this is actually a benefit.

We've done the AEM standalone on several 2ZZs now and a couple of non-2ZZ DBW cars. I have no reason to think it won't work great on Derek's car but he has my assurance that if it doesn't perform right after it's tuned in that he won't owe a dollar for that part of the project and that he'll be free to choose another tuning solution whether that be a piggyback or a reflash. I don't believe there is a widely trusted solution yet for high hp DBW Elises and believe the AEM is the best option available. It's been very solid and reliable up to 750hp in our drag/LSR car so I have full confidence in its capabilities.

It's not easy to do a project like this with an audience so go easy on me ok guys?

[Demonized]

Originally Posted by Monkeywrench

Some background on the car. It is indeed a Hass turbo car. Whoever installed the kit originally did some "creative" things, especially with the wiring. At the customer's request we've addressed some of the various issues that the car had before it was brought to us. I wouldn't quite call it a basket case when it arrived but it was close.

Before these current electrical issues cropped up we had not done ANY wiring work on this car besides removing a water injection system and correcting a gauge install. The car exhibited the symptoms that Derek mentioned and worse. I have no idea what happened to this car before it was brought to us but things are not right.

We got the car running ok on the stock ECU again after cleaning the ECU connectors. The fuel pump circuit is functioning as it should but we did bypass some of the stock wiring to make that happen. Many people run larger gauge wire to high flow pumps to keep the voltage up so this is actually a benefit.

We've done the AEM standalone on several 2ZZs now and a couple of non-2ZZ DBW cars. I have no reason to think it won't work great on Derek's car but he has my assurance that if it doesn't perform right after it's tuned in that he won't owe a dollar for that part of the project and that he'll be free to choose another tuning solution whether that be a piggyback or a reflash. I don't believe there is a widely trusted solution yet for high hp DBW Elises and believe the AEM is the best option available. It's been very solid and reliable up to 750hp in our drag/LSR car so I have full confidence in its capabilities.

It's not easy to do a project like this with an audience so go easy on me ok guys?

I don't think this reflects on MWR nearly as much (Or even at all...) as it compounds the problems that the HASS turbo-kits created.

Seems to me like you guys are trying very hard.

[dereklburt]

Originally Posted by Monkeywrench

Some background on the car. It is indeed a Hass turbo car. Whoever installed the kit originally did some "creative" things, especially with the wiring. At the customer's request we've addressed some of the various issues that the car had before it was brought to us. I wouldn't quite call it a basket case when it arrived but it was close.

It's not easy to do a project like this with an audience so go easy on me ok guys?

So far preliminary testing shows that everything on the car is good mechanically so for that I would like to thank Monkeywrench. Matt is right that when I brought the car to him originally, it barely made more power than stock. I have had real problems with the tuning from the start. The first attempt with a reflash ECU and still using the Greedy emanage piggyback just did not work as well as expected. It wasn't horrible but just didn't pull right in the upper rpm (most likely due to cam timing) but made very good torque.

It appears that the ECU problems with not starting etc were most likely due to the "ECU GOOP" that Charlie talked about from when the ECU was reflashed. Matt has been putting in a lot of time and effort trying to figure the tuning part out and he reported that with only a rough tune, it showed very good power potential and made more power on the same boost level than before (and this is with a lower compression ratio). Obviously he knows what he is doing with the AEM unit and makes incredible power with his Celica. I definitely appreciate all of his effort in trying to get the car sorted out.

I obviously do not have much of a clue when it comes to tuning these vehicles but what I do know is that for some reason, the ECU doesn't always agree with mods as evidence from my initial tune. We expected to get around 275-280rwhp and ended up with 236rwhp. I would not think that the ECU would cause any more problems or interfere with the AEM unit any more than it did with the emanage as far as the throttle goes, but it will offer a lot more "tunability".

I am hopeful that we can get this to work and not have problems with the ECU throwing codes, and going into "limp mode" as Charlie mentioned. I guess we will find out in good time. Matt is dedicated to getting this figured out and if all goes well and the DBW doesn't cause problems, I am certain that I will have a well tuned high power Elise. How the 2006 ECU will respond is the big unknown here and only time will tell. That is the part that has been so anxiety provoking as I wish there was just a clear cut solution

I sure can not fault Matt for all his work, he is definitely trying his best and hopefully I will have real good news to report here soon. If I had a 2005 or if the Lotus ECU was more like the Celica's, there never would have been an issue and I would have a lot less gray hair. I guess that's what I get for not being able to leave well enough alone.

[charliex]

is the aem a piggyback or standalone, my comments about the dbw were for a standalone.

[turbophil]

FWIW- the standalone guys with DBW and the EFI are doing fine without a separate DBW controller...

I have no idea why you would fool around with the AEM or piggy back stuff when there are two perfectly good solutions. 1) Charlie to flash the ECU and 2) Being the EFI to control things yourself...

Props for wanting to reinvent the wheel. Lord knows I've done it a few times myself--- but I enjoy the process. Sounds like that's not your cup of tea, so perhaps you should go back to solution 1 or 2. Charlie mentioned that in a previous post as well...

Best of luck,

Phil

[dereklburt]

Well, I think the AEM is a stand alone but Matt did mention that he was hooking up a lot of it through the same wires that the Greedy emanage uses. I know it is not the universal unit and think that it might be a "plug and play" unit that he modifies for use on the 2zz. I know it is the same thing that Matt uses on his Celica. I guess he would be the one to answer that.

Just wondering what the difference is with the EFI? Wouldn't this essentially be doing the same thing? I guess I will read up a little on that. I just know that I did not want to spend 3 to 4 thousand on a unit.

Hopefully I will get some news tonight on how it is working.

[charliex]

well typically the best thing to do is go with the one the guy whos working on it is familiar with or recommends.

most ecu's are basically the same, some have better features than others, prices vary, software varies in quality, but none of it matters if the guy installing and tuning it has never used it.

if MWR say go with the AEM and they can make it work, go with it, as i said before since i have no idea what they're intending to do i can't say if it'll hit a problem, but they ought to know, and if they run into issues they can solve it.

Just realise that if its the first unit being installed in a lotus, any unforseen problems will be just that, unforseen, but liek most things its just better to be comfortable with the tools and tech you're trying to solve for.

the EFI usa doesn't have anything magic that makes it work, its basically the same as the one thats in the lotus in the first place, its mostly just the software, so long as the standalone supports all the features of the engine, cylinders, ignition, crank signal, vvtli etc then there is no reason it ought not to work, and mwr will know that, if they've put it in 2ZZ-ge cars before then it does support the features.

the bit i was unsure about was how do you feed the pedal position into the stock ecu and then let it controller the DBW independently from the standalone, but i'm sure thats not what they intend to do, standalones aren't called that for no reason.

talk to rob about his can bus adapter too, he can probably knock you up something to control the dash from the aem, look in the 2007 to 2008 cluster conversion thread thats recent.

[charliex]

also regarding the question of multiple maps for different boost levels, i'd map it at high boost, then use a compensating fuel system that looked after the fuel for a different boost level.

[dereklburt]

Just an update. I am waiting on the final results but so far things seem to be working. I should know in a few days for sure as they are going to do some road testing as well. Matt from Monkeywrench posted a new thread, "Tuning for turbo power" on the initial results and so far it seems as if it is going to work with the drive by wire. I am excited to see where the power goes as with a preliminary tune it is at about 360whp at 16psi. He figures that the turbo will be the limiting factor but we should be able to get around 20psi. That should put me somewhere in the neighborhood of 380-400whp on pump gas! I can't wait!

[Demonized]

Originally Posted by dereklburt

Just an update. I am waiting on the final results but so far things seem to be working. I should know in a few days for sure as they are going to do some road testing as well. Matt from Monkeywrench posted a new thread, "Tuning for turbo power" on the initial results and so far it seems as if it is going to work with the drive by wire. I am excited to see where the power goes as with a preliminary tune it is at about 360whp at 16psi. He figures that the turbo will be the limiting factor but we should be able to get around 20psi. That should put me somewhere in the neighborhood of 380-400whp on pump gas! I can't wait!

Careful sir, don't know when the transmission might say bye, at those numbers.

Anyway, glad to hear it's working out better, and I'm crossing my fingers for your baby.

[charliex]

glad its getting worked out.