EFI Experience Thread

[GTsRasta]

Originally Posted by Dave

Check this out:

Just got back from the dyno this morning. This is the out of the box EFI map with zero tuning/conservative timing! Note the Katana a/f...wow. Tail pipe probe and my AEM wideband were nearly spot on. Pulls were back to back about 10 minutes apart, 3.2" pulley, ambient 62F. Katana=red, EFI=blue.

0o0o0o0...look at that PPE race header gains up top! Nice!!!

So this is with just bolt ons and about a 10 psi pulley on a stock motor? No water injection at all?

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by charliex

I'd say more note the lesson in physics, have to keep repeating over and over, don't change the pulley, regardless of who tells you it runs fine.

GT- This is with just a 8.5psi pulley (real boost opposed to advertised) and no water injection... The fiuel and closed loop portion of the tune are a bit different than base map, the timing is untouched though (18 total timing). Dave and I have been tinkering with this for a couple of weeks now on the street...


CW- With all due respect (quote: Ricky Bobby), I doubt the pulley is doing that... It's probably more likely due to his aftermarket air intake and subsequent positioning and setup of the MAF in that intake. Simply put, a smaller pulley will pull more air through the MAF which should dump more fuel (increase injector pulse width) based on your injection map. There's no way you don't have enough resolution in your injection map to deal with a few more grams of air... so back to a skewed MAF reading from his intake...

We (Darksol and I) found that the AM intakes jack with the MAF readings and can cause the car to run lean even with a 3.4" pulley on the Katana (Nothing earth shattering there, we just experienced it first hand and early on- You remember those days? ). I'll bet you lunch that if Dave were running the stock airbox and MAF setup, the AFRs would drop into acceptable levels wit the 3.2. I ran the 3.2" pulley on your tune and the AFRs were reasonable with the stock intake (KN filter).I have many data logs to show this...
That said, it detonated with the 3.2 (even with 100 octane), so I'm not advocating tracking the car with a 3.2" pulley and Katana, regardless of what intake one is running. ...

In summary, we agree--- Katana people who track should stick with 3.4" pulley- Just as Charlie said!!! The Katana tune is a perfect solution for those who want a reliable and reasonable power increase. It's bolt on, turn key, and no fuss... The EFI is for the modded cars that want more, more, more... Dave's car is an excellent example of what bolt ons will do and still has room to go, IMO...although we all know we're getting closer to a terminal number for a car is tracked a lot on stock internals and pump gas... Hard telling what that number actually is until the big bang though

Best,

Phil

[GTsRasta]

Cool stuff. I honestly expected him to be in the low 240 whp range, but it looks like he's a slight tune away from hitting 250 whp. That's just awesome. Plus when he adds water injection, that should be good for even more power!

This gives me hope to be a consistant high 12 second car with numbers like that once I get my friend's setup by Fall, and switch his Boosted2.0 ported header for a PPE race header.

And what are the official psi pulley sizes and boost levels associated with them (3.4", 3.2", 3.1", etc)? I've been wondering this for a while...

[ace996]

Phil,
Great to see you working on this and making some real progress with your tuning and application. I have never been a great fanof OTS tunes but understand that sometimes there just isn't an alternative. The ability to tune your car custom is certainly worth power and reliability... and using the wideband is dead-on!!!

If you would...
- Areyou able to log short-term fuel trims?
-Are you able to log intake air temps? Post S/C???...if so, what have been the IATs during the track-sessions vs street runs?
-Is knock detected by the EFI?
-Whathappens when Knock is detected by the EFI? Is timing pulled or fuel increased?

The reason I ask is that I am very close to pulling the trigger on a S/C but amhesitant to do so without an ability to custom tune (I'm comfortable tuning myself) a system tht doesn't have an intercooler for the roadcourse. I am also a strong believer of methanol/water injection, having two prior cars with it, and would like the ability to properly tune for it for road-course application.

Thanks and please keep up the good work,
TomK

[turbophil]

Tom,

Thanks. Dave and I both have been working with this without much assistance for the past couple weeks... He's been on the dyno and I've been doing the track tuning. I say this and we really haven't spent any real dollars tuning so far ont he dyno, just some hours on the street. THe dyno plots Dave made were truly baseline after some initial tweaks I made to PID (closed loop operation) and base AFRs. I know he's going to be toying with it more... I'm going to continue street/track tuning as time permits. It's good to know that we have a safe 240+whp tune that has room to build on

To answer your questions:

Knock- We opted not to add that feature. The 2ZZ is known to give false knock and I didn't want to consequently have a false sense of security. That said, it is an option and can be added...

Fuel trims- Logging is another option we did not get. The tuning software will display several seconds to minutes worth of the current run. Remember with a wideband you don't have open loop trims. That said, there is a base map and it will show what % of correction it's making to hit the desired AFRs that we tell it to hit. While it's not crucial to dial in the base map so those corrections are <5%, it is advisable.

I log EVERYTHING with my DL-1 Temps before and after blower, MAP, AFRs, TPS, RPM, et cetera... On the track with 3.2" pulley I'll run 255 outlet temps peak and about 235 peak outlet on the street. We have a correction table that we can trim timing based on post blower IAT. We trim 2 degrees timing around 250ish degrees to be safe... Totally at our own discression to be on the safe side... One of the cool things about the EFI is that we position the IAT sensor post blower for that very reason. I have redudant MAP and IAT sensors for the data logging. I've got more darn computers in my car that I know what to do with!

On that note, there are a whole host of correction/safety tables where we can +/- fuel and/or timing based on a host of parameters to build in engine safety.


You can also program the EFI to run your water injection system as well... Just ask Kris to build it into the harness. Now that I've purchased 2 tunes from Charlie, an Xede from tri-point, and finally an EFI, I finally feel that I've got what I want (and only how many dollars later)... I also now have the ability to switch gears to a rotrex or a turbo if I got real wild hair One step at a time though... Still need to iron out this tune and get the IC built... That's a project I was supposed to start a while back...I just hope Dave doesn't get too antsy waiting for me to get that done

Best,

Phil

Originally Posted by ace996

Phil,
Great to see you working on this and making some real progress with your tuning and application. I have never been a great fanof OTS tunes but understand that sometimes there just isn't an alternative. The ability to tune your car custom is certainly worth power and reliability... and using the wideband is dead-on!!!

If you would...
- Areyou able to log short-term fuel trims?
-Are you able to log intake air temps? Post S/C???...if so, what have been the IATs during the track-sessions vs street runs?
-Is knock detected by the EFI?
-Whathappens when Knock is detected by the EFI? Is timing pulled or fuel increased?

The reason I ask is that I am very close to pulling the trigger on a S/C but amhesitant to do so without an ability to custom tune (I'm comfortable tuning myself) a system tht doesn't have an intercooler for the roadcourse. I am also a strong believer of methanol/water injection, having two prior cars with it, and would like the ability to properly tune for it for road-course application.

Thanks and please keep up the good work,
TomK

[Dave]

Originally Posted by turbophil

and get the IC built... That's a project I was supposed to start a while back...I just hope Dave doesn't get too antsy waiting for me to get that done

Are we there yet, are we there yet...

[GTsRasta]

Ever consider the J&S safeguard to monitor knock?

Lilrocket has been using it on many of the 2zz swapped MR2-Spyders he did with Apexi Power FC standalone ECU tunes, and swears by it's ability to save the engine by setting a knock threshold with it, even by individual cylinders.

[turbophil]

To extract maximum power, we may end up using a knock sensor... Have to refer to Casey or Kris to see how involved it is to add it to the EFI after the fact...

At this point, I'm not too worried about it, but perhaps sometime down the road...

Best,

Phil

[2-Y-CHROMOSOMES]

Originally Posted by Dave

Are we there yet, are we there yet...

The intercooler should be out of the fab today. Crossing fingers for a monday delivery..but should be here next week sometime.

[ace996]

Thanks for your reply. My comments in red...

Originally Posted by turbophil

Knock- We opted not to add that feature. The 2ZZ is known to give false knock and I didn't want to consequently have a false sense of security. That said, it is an option and can be added... As Rasta suggests, J&SSafeguard for knock detection...better to have than not, especially when you are tuning. How do you know when you have knock? By thetime you hear knock, it's already too late.

Fuel trims- Logging is another option we did not get. The tuning software will display several seconds to minutes worth of the current run. Remember with a wideband you don't have open loop trims. That said, there is a base map and it will show what % of correction it's making to hit the desired AFRs that we tell it to hit. While it's not crucial to dial in the base map so those corrections are <5%, it is advisable. %correction, that's what I meant...that will allow you to hit the buttery-smooth tuning that people rave over... tweak that to under 2% and you may be surprised at how smooth it becomes. Remember, the less the box needs to correct, the smoother it will run. Sounds like you're in a great zone, though... 5% is close. Work on getting that as close to 0% as possible...it'll take time and may change day to day, but that's where the ability to tune really shines with smoothness. Keep it up!!!

I log EVERYTHING with my DL-1 Temps before and after blower, MAP, AFRs, TPS, RPM, et cetera... On the track with 3.2" pulley I'll run 255 outlet temps peak and about 235 peak outlet on the street. -OMG, that is really high. My Z06 would pull timing at 140degrees and the car fell on it's face. I can't imagine how much power is left on the table, with an ability to tune, if you could bring down IATs to 100degrees. It's gotta be at least 20rwhp. That's why I won't run a blower without an I/C without meth/water. No doubt you'd be able to run several more degrees timing if tempswere lower.We have a correction table that we can trim timing based on post blower IAT. We trim 2 degrees timing around 250ish degrees to be safe... Totally at our own discression to be on the safe side... One of the cool things about the EFI is that we position the IAT sensor post blower for that very reason. I have redudant MAP and IAT sensors for the data logging. I've got more darn computers in my car that I know what to do with!
Phil, I'm not surprised at the temps. The rule of thumb is 10-12degrees hotter for every PSI of boost. That and the heat generated by the Eaton blower, not the most efficient form of FI, creates some real heat. Please mount a knock-sensor. You'd be amazed at how aggressive a tune you can run until the heat creeps up, then KNOCK... and then the tune will shut down. With my Z06, which had the Magnacharger, we ran quite aggressive timing in the low/mid rpms and then pulled a few degrees of timing at the higher rpms, as the blower just couldn't keep from throwing fire. Once we mounted the meth/water....
I'd guess that a 100octane or 110octane map would allow a better timing curve if you didn't want to use WI.

On that note, there are a whole host of correction/safety tables where we can +/- fuel and/or timing based on a host of parameters to build in engine safety.


You can also program the EFI to run your water injection system as well... that's an option, but I am used to using a separate controller, that works off of MAF voltage and progressively ramps-up spray as needed. If the EFI can really handle that duty, properly, then I'm very interested. Just ask Kris to build it into the harness. Now that I've purchased 2 tunes from Charlie, an Xede from tri-point, and finally an EFI, I finally feel that I've got what I want (and only how many dollars later)... I also now have the ability to switch gears to a rotrex or a turbo if I got real wild hair One step at a time though... Still need to iron out this tune and get the IC built... That's a project I was supposed to start a while back...I just hope Dave doesn't get too antsy waiting for me to get that done

Best,

Phil

Again, thank you so much for sharing your experience with us... it is great news to hear that it's working well and that you've more planned...especially an IC. Best of luck to you!!!!
Be good,
TomK

[Maypo]

I installed the EFI Tech box, too, along with an "S" supercharger kit on my '06 Exige. The only in-depth experience I have with engine management tuning, is an Autronics system I added to my Miata. That was a pretty steep and difficult learning curve, because it was in the context of a one-of-a-kind project that I was trying to design, build, tune and compete in simultaneously -- an undertaking I don't recommend. Unfortunately for me, the EFI system is completely different, so, aside from foreknowledge of sensor functions and basic tuning terminology, I am practically starting over.

The EFI product is very polished and the user interfaces are slick and flexible. But it is apparent that it is intended for tuners rather than club racers. Which simply means I had another steep curve to scale, along with the attendant anxiety, most of which is behind me now. I found the "instructions" to be bare minimum, although precise: four wiring diagrams and the software help files. I probably qualify as an 'old school' guy (plus, I am a tech writer by trade), so I find value and comfort in the written word: the Autronic system came with a 60-page manual.

I had one other disappointment because I had assumed -- based on reading about other people's management systems and having owned the Autronic -- that the thing had datalogging on board. I didn't find out otherwise until the middle of my first dyno session.

As my car has DBW throttle, I am struggling with idle misbehavior. I haven't been able to get instruction on how to massage that, but Kris@DRS is scheduled for a fly-and-tune service in a couple weeks, and I understand that meticulous tuning can make the idle serviceable for those like me don't want to spend another grand on the EFI 'idle module.' That session will be combination tuning and training, and I hope to feel like I 'm in chagre thereafter.

A far as the EFI results, it is first class, in terms of out-of-the-box driveability and perfomance (thanks to the people @ DRS and FF who support us Lotus folks). I have had two dyno sessions that may have qualified as the blind-leading-the-blind, but the car works well: no hiccups, good power, and lots of people commenting on how good the car sounds at Solo events.

[turbophil]

May-

On the idle, try this:

In the Accel/Decel tab, open the constants. Adjust your Proportional and Integral Gain down to zero (it's probably on 65 and 10 now). If your idle goes too high, try bringing the injector width down on your idle cells within your fuel map. I did this and my idle doesn't even have the slightest oscilation. I mean zero. Regardless of throttle blips, whether the AC is on or not, et cetera: It is dead steady... This is on a 05 car, but may be worth a shot on your DBW car...

Best,

Phil

[Maypo]

Thanks, Phil, I'll give it a go.

[insane]

Phil.... you need to write a BOOK when you're done!

[turbophil]

Insane, Hehehe...As someone else pointed out, there could be blood in the streets if I told people they're not getting their clam hinges because I'm writing my book at the moment

I need to get my next project done before the end of track season too. It's just too cool not use this year



Maypo, I'm happy to send you my "Delta Map" (Started with Alpha, then Bravo, etc). As you know, what works on my car won't always work great on another car. If your throttle body is stock diameter, this will probably work pretty good on your car. Just not sure what's different about a DBW map vs. cable---if anything...You'll need to change the wideband table to work with your car's wideband (I'm assuming you're running a diff 02???)... I'm running NGK AFX... It's just a 91 octane tune, but runs smooth and consistant. Dave has bascially the same map that just posted 248whp (although his car has all the cool goodies, headers, bigger TB, and intake porting) .... not too bad for a hot air car--- I'm sure his car could push 255 or 260whp before getting too dangerous with all his bolt-ons.

Best,

Phil

[Maypo]

Phil,

Thanks for the offer. Actually, I have a replica of Randy's old map as a starting point and, like I said, the car works well. I am not using a wideband sensor, just the one that came with the EFI kit from DRS.

Who is "Dave"?

BTW, I am intrigued by the clam hinge. I will have to figure out if that would be legal.

[GTsRasta]

Do you guys think the top end oriented 4-1 PPE race header had to contribute to Dave being 1.37 whp away from hitting 250 whp over the shorty headers? I believe he gained 3-4 whp from switching from a shorty header to the PPE race header alone on his old setup.

My guesstimate of him being in the low (240-243 whp) to mid (243-246 whp) 240+ whp was trumped by this dyno. I think it's the race header.

If I'm not mistaken, I think he's the first supercharged 2zz owner with the PPE race header putting down numbers on a dyno . Plus he's doing it on a standalone tune! I don't think any 2zz supercharged Toyotas are running this supercharger + PPE race header setup yet.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by Maypo

Who is "Dave"?

Who's Dave?

Dave puts the ness in Daveness

.....He's also the Dave in above post with Dyno plots...

Cheers,

Phil

[darkSol]

Originally Posted by turbophil

Dave puts the ness in Daveness

Ahem. Cough cough