EFI misconceptions and rumors

[Bavarian Motorist]

If I had DRS services here, I'd buy an EFI!



It's the most advanced, multi-compatible and versatile system I've seen.

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by Manny

But with no full control of VVT(on and off ...ex: full advanced and full retard does make it a true vvt control...talk about most andvanced

Dont worry Frank, I mean Manny, we are working on some new improvements to the system that are going to offer more than just a modulated VVT control. I'm not convinced (b/c of the cam profiles) it will result in much of a gain in ultimate power and/or torque, but should offer some efficiency gains. Hopefully I am wrong though.

Regardless of your opinion, comparing the EFI stand-alone to other stand-alone systems in the same price range (and are actually available and ready to run a 2ZZ engine out of the box) it is very advanced.

Another important thing to note is that the unit we use is an enrty level model. If the market would bare it we would have used a more advanced unit, like the X3 or 4.0 to start with and then there would be so many features and options it would be borderline rediculous.

Obviously there are many functions the stock ECU will do that our system was never intended for and vice versa.

Some things the stock ECU cannot control that we offer:
Closed-Loop Boost Control (5 maps w/ option to set per gear)
Closed-Loop Wideband Lambda
Engine Protection (self-defined)
DC output or DBW mode (configurable)
Internal Data Logging (that can be used specifically for track analysis)

Oh yeah, AND IT CAN ALL BE TUNED BY THE END USER WITH A EDITOR PROGRAM WHENEVER YOU WANT TO MAKE A HARDWARE CHANGE.

I think this is a dead issue. We're not trying to compare or compete with Charlie's reflash...He has his niche and we have ours so you can give it a rest. If you want to compare us to MoTec or some other standalone that's fine. I actually encourage people to do that so they can see the real value of this system. Remember the ECU is just one component in the kit. I think people fail to realise they are getting a wiring loom, sensors, and other bits when they look at the price.

Kris

[mark.r]

I obviously haven't been spending nearly as much time on the board as used to . . . especially to have missed this thread. At any rate, everybody thinks they are an expert these days no matter what it is. Let me say this, the results speak for themselves and all you have to do is look at those numbers in my sig to see what the guys at DRS do.

You know I go back and read this post:
EFI misconceptions and rumors

and this post:
EFI misconceptions and rumors

and all I can say is you guys just be reminded how lucky you are to have Kris and DRS right there in your back yard. Having to ship your car across the country in the midst of a country wide fuel crises is not the easiest decision but it speaks volumes about DRS that I did that . . . and I don't regret it a bit. I knew the car was going to be right. I would do it again without a second thought . . . and I should have done it to start with.

Robin, ask Kris about my complaints . . . the ones you listed in the post I just linked. Then ask him how my car drives now.

[robains]

Mark -- good to know, I'm looking forward to having all these issues resolved.

Rob

P.S. how did you know my full name is Robin?

[Solo2Elise]

I will be driving from San Jose to S. CA to have Kris work on S/C installation and EFI tuning in 2 weeks. I will update you once I got my car back.

[robains]

Hmmm...maybe we should go together, that is about the time frame I hope to get tuned by Kris.

[mark.r]

Originally Posted by robains

Mark -- good to know, I'm looking forward to having all these issues resolved.

Rob

P.S. how did you know my full name is Robin?

Actually that's a good question. I guess I just translated your screen name into Robin.

Originally Posted by robains

Hmmm...maybe we should go together, that is about the time frame I hope to get tuned by Kris.

Hey, you guys be sure to check in on my baby for me. Give her some love when you get there.

[turbophil]

I guess it would only be appropriate for me to chime in...

I've really enjoyed the EFI tuning experience. Car runs better than ever and I've picked up torque across the entire power band... largely because I was able to tune for my mods and then change my setup and tune for more mods...

My next project will require tuning again and I've got the right tools to do it

Best,

Phil

[Solo2Elise]

Originally Posted by robains

Hmmm...maybe we should go together, that is about the time frame I hope to get tuned by Kris.

Robin,

I am driving to S. CA on Oct 10th. Leaving around 8 pm or so. Got an appointment with Kris on 11th.

Hung

[robains]

Hung,

Haven't officially set anything up with Kris yet, don't want to do that til my motor is back in my car and running.

Checked with the folks sending me new short block #2, they haven't shipped it to me yet, they're waiting for my FedEd damaged short block to return (FedEx already picked it up and it should arrive today/Friday). This is contrary to what 1st Toyota Parts initially told me -- they a new one would ship immediately, but apparently that is not the case and they want to validate the block that was damaged in shipping by FedEx.

So once they go over the damaged short block, they'll send out the new old (hopefully Monday), but that will mean it'll be Thurs/Frid 2nd/3rd - which basically gives me 7 days to get it back in and running (so it'll be close even if Kris were available for a tune).

Anyway, I'll keep ya posted. If I get the car running and Kris is willing and the moon is full and ...

Rob

[stinkyonion]

I wish they had a ecu forum for noobs. My BWR supercharger is in the mail. I also want aftermartket intake and exhaust, maybe headers. I live in Chicago with no Charlie access. Dont wanna pay thousands in shipping for each retune. My understanding is EFI lets me pay onetime fee for equipement and then nice people who have maps may share them so I can get free ecu upgrades with car upgrades. I would even buy specific car upgrades to match availalble maps.

In the end, I just want some car upgrades for personal pleasure, doubt any racing in my future. Dont want the hassle of going to the dyno all the time. Is efi best solution ?

[RacyTracy]

Originally Posted by stinkyonion

I live in Chicago with no Charlie access.

Have you talked to TJ at FVMC? He knows a lot of people.

[fzust]

Originally Posted by stinkyonion

I wish they had a ecu forum for noobs. My BWR supercharger is in the mail. I also want aftermartket intake and exhaust, maybe headers. I live in Chicago with no Charlie access. Dont wanna pay thousands in shipping for each retune. My understanding is EFI lets me pay onetime fee for equipement and then nice people who have maps may share them so I can get free ecu upgrades with car upgrades. I would even buy specific car upgrades to match availalble maps.

In the end, I just want some car upgrades for personal pleasure, doubt any racing in my future. Dont want the hassle of going to the dyno all the time. Is efi best solution ?

I believe that if you are just going to depend soley on the kindness of strangers, the EFI is NOT for you. That said if you are willing to take a bit of time to learn a bit how it works and try a few things, you will be very happy with the end results. The nicest part is not only that you CAN get maximum power out of it, but that you can make little tweaks here and there to suit your specific needs. I think Kris, Phil, and Dave are really building a user community here that can benefit everyone.

[stinkyonion]

and one more thing...I found yesterday the other site with ongoing flame war about the reflash vs. efi. I dont know much, but it was clear that it was vastly personal and im glad his cracker@$$ was banned. Seemed like everyone was going out of their way trying not to upset the flamer and treat him maturely, but he was in a 3rd grade rant with the linguistic skills of a drunken sailor.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by stinkyonion

and one more thing...I found yesterday the other site with ongoing flame war about the reflash vs. efi. I dont know much, but it was clear that it was vastly personal and im glad his cracker@$$ was banned. Seemed like everyone was going out of their way trying not to upset the flamer and treat him maturely, but he was in a 3rd grade rant with the linguistic skills of a drunken sailor.

That's why I don't use "the other site".

[turbophil]

I agree with Fred. All the EFI users that I've ran into are happy to share maps and vise-versa... There are slight differences from one car to the other and one setup to the other that will likely need some fine tuning- of course that's kind of the point.

For instance, my maps work seemingly flawless on Clayton's car and they're close for Dave's car... But Dave's car requires more fuel and less timing than my car. There's a whole host of reasons for what causes this. You don't have to be expert to deal with it, but you DO need to be willing to tinker with it and learn the software. Once the car is dialed in, you can leave it alone until you change the setup of the car. Then you run up to the dyno and do a little tuning to "unlock" the power of what you just bolted on... Of course, sometimes the things you might bolt on hurt power which you'll find out on the dyno as well

So in summary, if you build your car similar to what has been done, chances are you'll only need to make small changes to get your car dialed in. As you continue to grow more comfortable with the software, you will likely start making changes that you prefer, such as cam switch points, etc... You don't need to frequent the dyno unless you're trying to really get all the power out of it, but you will need to be able to watch your AFRs on a wide open and some part throttle areas to ensure initial fuel settings are OK. This can be done on the EFI software with a buddy in the car to watch the lap top or at the dyno--- preferably on the dyno so you can be sure that who's ever tune you start with has enough fuel in it for your car...

Hope that helps. Perhaps Dave, Ronnie, Jim, etc might have more to add...

Best,

Phil

[robains]

What is the "other" site?

Stinky - agree with you, BUT be aware dyno time isn't free either. I don't know what CharlieX charges for reflashes so I can't compare cost to dyno vs. cost to ship and reflash.

My plan is to get a good baseline dyno tune from Kris and if I have to pay extra to learn what he is doing while he is doing it, then I will. I've installed and/or am installing a bunch of additional sensors (wideband, EGT, IAT, Boost, etc.) that I hope I can effectively use to adjust my car over time and keep it safe while making good power (hell, if I have to I'll even keep fuel "specific gravity" maps).

Where I differ from Phil and others, is that I don't plan to keep doing dyno tunes every time I make changes to the car unless they are drastic (as in new built motor). For example I plan to install this header in the future and plan to tune without a visit to the dyno. Heck, if I have to, I'll find an empty stretch of road to do 4th and/or 5th gear pull. I prefer using real world because dyno's don't emulate the wind forces that are also putting a considerable amount of load on the car and in my case can't emulate the volume of air being pushed over the IC.

Knowledge and sharing of MAPs is a good thing especially if one's engine package is very similar. I can't really use Phil's MAPs because his current setup is too different (no Cat, not DBW, doesn't have FF air intake, etc.), but I could look at his maps and ask him what changed over time and learn from that.

Seeing as folks can get perfect safe tunes with EFI, that tells me it can be done and there is no "weakness" in using EFI. In fact, it should ultimately be the coolest thing since sliced bread, even for a relative EFI noob like myself.

But I do encourage you read up on EFI and specifically on how VVT works in these 2ZZ motors. After taking my motor apart and reading the Service Manual (they have a good section on VVT) and actually seeing the parts and the very trick/cool way they work, it does help give some background on how to make EFI work also. This 2ZZ is actually a pretty darn nice motor from Yamaha -- my only wish is that they made it a 2.2 litre not a 1.8 litre.

Rob

[jim-clayton]

EFI is the ticket. I matched my car to Phil's. Phil is kind enough to share his maps.
I got more hp with each mod and map.

I got an additional 20hp with EFI right from the start.
I added headers, smaller pulley, and intake and got another 22hp.
(same dyno each time)
My local tuner says my maps are conservative on timing. The A/F's look good and the car runs great.

I will say left to my own devices I would not be at the dyno making tunning runs. EFI made good sense for me because I was planning to sponge maps.
he he

[dmh]

EFI is not for street cars but rather for race car/off road/marine/aviation applications. Importantly, EFI is for experienced tuners with all the right tools at his disposal and not enthusiasts. To market or tout it otherwise is a devious practice.

EFI is also not really the best standalone for the Toyota/Yamaha VVTi technology. Phasing...

EFITechnology

[robains]

...sponge maps.

LOL - phil has been absorbed into the collective.

dmh - why not? (bet you were begging for that question)

The current stock ECU on the Lotus is made by EFI, just not as flexible when it comes to tuning. (at least my stock one has a big logo on it that says EFI)