EFI misconceptions and rumors

[MaineLotus]

Unrestricting the exhaust caused the problem. Your right, not enough fuel because of too much oxygen from too much boost. Before the restriction was removed, low boost. After removal, high boost and ...

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by dmh

A customer of ours has been pursuing a used Lotus EFI unit. Do any of the units currently in circulation have the VVTi control as the Motec, Autronics, or Vi-PEC? If not, will it be upgradeable?
(An Exige just left the shop with Vi-PEC and a blue-printed engine. NASA racer.)

Just like the other manufactures you mentioned EFI also makes more than one ECU. X1, 1.2, X3, and 4.0 (X5). Each unit offering more features than the other, and varying in price. Our Lotus ECU is based on the 1.2, but is internally different than a standard 1.2 ECU.

When your customer gets the system please ask him to send it to us so that we can upgrade the firmware and make a slight wiring change to the adapter harness.

Kris

[charliex]

sicne i've been away, and this thread is here, and my names mentioned, i might as well reply, again.

Some things the stock ECU cannot control that we offer:
1 Closed-Loop Boost Control (5 maps w/ option to set per gear)
2 Closed-Loop Wideband Lambda
3 Engine Protection (self-defined)
4 DC output or DBW mode (configurable)
5 Internal Data Logging (that can be used specifically for track analysis

1, 2 incorrect, it can and does, i've corrected you on this before, the last time you posted a list like this, its a shame to see you're still posting incorrect information when you its a thread about disinformation, the stock ecu has per gear settings too. i'm in the process of finalising the pc tuning software to use the wideband to correct basemaps, but the current ecu does and can run a wideband for correction, the only difference as far as the ecu hardware is concerned from a wideband to a narrow band is voltagage range, which is can handle all the range it needs to, beyond that its just a matter of altering the look up tables.

3, not sure what you mean by this so can't really respond directly, so i'll list what the stock ecu can do, very advanced knock map control, multiple spark, vvtli and fuel tables for different conditions and octanes, and a failsafe mode, air and coolant temperature maps, rpm limiters soft and hard.

4, stock ecu is configurable just the same.

5. stock ecu has internal data logging too, it has quite a complex data logging system that has over 450 parameters, and thats on top of the 'telltale' and obd II freeze frame information, i use it, lotus uses it.

as i've said before the usa EFI uses basically the same hardware as the italian EFI, the lotus one is custom built for the purpose but still uses that same processor, the only real difference between the two units is software related.

drs has a workable solution for the car and plenty of people seem happy with it, this not anything to do with their service, or the ecu they use, its simply correcting misinformation, i don't really see the difference from someone condemning one individual giving reportedly false information from not knowing enough about the system, to another doing exactly the same, especially when i've corrected it in the past.

the biggest difference is that drs solution allows the end user to tune, at the moment, i could offer it, but have not done so.

kris, if you want to update your notes on this, i'd much appreciate it,
cheers

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by Solo2Elise

Hi Kris,

Is this a firmware/software upgrade? Will I get it by the time I go down to S. CA?

Hung

Hung, We should have it ready in time for you install. I'll keep you posted.
thanks,
Kris

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by robains

Great news EB Turbo (any chance for a your first name?)

Here is a link to the latest EFI software

There might be more recent if contacted directly, don't know. I don't see any "Firmware" upgrades so either they are included in the software update package downloads or have to be obtained separately by calling??

Rob.

P.S. - you need a login user/password.

Rob, We keep track of all the Lotus firmware and software here at DRS. You cannot get these updates from EFI's website. We'll install the newest firmware for you when we work on your car.

thanks,
Kris

[robains]

Kris,

Any chance that will change? i.e. be something we EFI customers can publically download and/or be provided with access to (via some registration process)?

Dependancies can get expensive and part of the lure of EFI setup is to control that expense while providing user flexibility as modifications are made to the car. I'd even be willing to pay a small annual subscription fee if it would ensure a regular stream of useful updates (software and firmware) and help pay for continued development.

On a side note, I was very impressed that EFI's own web site mentions that dyno tuning is NOT the end-all-be all for tuning one's car -- it should be just the start, not the end.

Charlie,

Do you offer any support for MAP switching?

...end user to tune, at the moment, i could offer it, but have not done so.

That would be very interesing indeed.

Thanks, Rob.

[charliex]

Rob, yes indeed, we've gone through a few different variations of the map switch, first one i think was 2y's car, which used a spare input on the OBD II port, you basically add a toggle switch on that pin and car switches between two entirely different sets of maps, every single map in the system can be different ( though in reality, you'd really only want to change a few) this includes the OBD II setup (which error codes), fuel etc

next we went to a remote display that communicates with the ecu via CAN, this can either load, or switch individual maps.

then we went holding a pedal at key on, before the engine starts, this switches between two maps, it could do more but its hold down, change, hold down change, etc and having more than two states is cumbersome and so far no ones asked for more than two, the cluster displays the state when you switch it. this stays selected until you change it, ie key off, battery out, it'll still be the same when you reconnect it, then you don't need extra hardware.

lastly the non released version is just loading new maps via a laptop, this currently works over the internet or locally, instead of having a system where you have to go and look, you just plug in the laptop and it tells you a new map is available, so its automatic, this is being designed for another product for a different platform, but the software works on both that and the lotus since its all scripted.

the stock ecu can hold about 8 full sets of maps altogether, so thats the potential for switching, but if it were just fuel and spark, you could hold a few 1000.

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by charliex

sicne i've been away, and this thread is here, and my names mentioned, i might as well reply, again.




1, 2 incorrect, it can and does, i've corrected you on this before, the last time you posted a list like this, its a shame to see you're still posting incorrect information when you its a thread about disinformation, the stock ecu has per gear settings too. i'm in the process of finalising the pc tuning software to use the wideband to correct basemaps, but the current ecu does and can run a wideband for correction, the only difference as far as the ecu hardware is concerned from a wideband to a narrow band is voltagage range, which is can handle all the range it needs to, beyond that its just a matter of altering the look up tables.

3, not sure what you mean by this so can't really respond directly, so i'll list what the stock ecu can do, very advanced knock map control, multiple spark, vvtli and fuel tables for different conditions and octanes, and a failsafe mode, air and coolant temperature maps, rpm limiters soft and hard.

4, stock ecu is configurable just the same.

5. stock ecu has internal data logging too, it has quite a complex data logging system that has over 450 parameters, and thats on top of the 'telltale' and obd II freeze frame information, i use it, lotus uses it.

as i've said before the usa EFI uses basically the same hardware as the italian EFI, the lotus one is custom built for the purpose but still uses that same processor, the only real difference between the two units is software related.

drs has a workable solution for the car and plenty of people seem happy with it, this not anything to do with their service, or the ecu they use, its simply correcting misinformation, i don't really see the difference from someone condemning one individual giving reportedly false information from not knowing enough about the system, to another doing exactly the same, especially when i've corrected it in the past.

the biggest difference is that drs solution allows the end user to tune, at the moment, i could offer it, but have not done so.

kris, if you want to update your notes on this, i'd much appreciate it,
cheers

Charlie
I was not slamming you or your product. I was merely clarifying some of the features our ECU offers compared to the stock ECU.

1. You can control boost per gear? How do you control boost electronically on a supercharged car? Or if it is turbo charged, how do you do this with a wire harness that was not designed to have a waste-gate solenoid connected to it?

2. Your'e in the process of working on using a wideband? OK

3. What do you mean you're not sure what I mean by this? As it states, Engine Protection...it allows the end user to define limits via different sensors.
I.e. if you loose oil pressure the ECU will shut down the engine. Or if you start to overheat the ECU will limit the revs to whatever value you define. I realize the stock ECU has the correction functions you mentioned, so does ours. All modern ECUs have correction functions. Bosch production ECUs are probably the most advanced in this regard (from my experience).

4. Our DC output is set up as a generic function. On DBW cars we use the pedal input to control the throttle, on a non-DBW car we can use this to control a number of things...i.e. variable intake. It' a software control feature that someone can use if they choose to.

5. Our Analysis program is entirely different than your purposes of logging. Obviously you can log an immense number of channels. ALL modern OEM control units do this for the purpose of diagnosis. Each OEM has their method of doing this.

Our system is designed to offer the ability to take the collected data and use it in the Analysis program so that it can be understood by the engineer, car driver, mechanics, etc... I.e. you're at Big Willow and you want to see how you throttled through turn 9, wheel spin, rpm, temps, pressures. You can download the session and look at your traces.

BTW - I will be updating our notes as our product continues to evolve. I would much appreciate it if you would acknowledge that we are not trying to put you down, we are informing people of the things our product offers. I think you're taking this way too personal.

Yes, we've gone at each other in the past...Honestly, I'm over it. I'm not the one who has a demented friend who needlessly drags people's name through the mud with a bunch of skewed "factual" data. Now your a victim of misinformation? This is like a worn out Soap Opera.

Kris

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by robains

Kris,

Any chance that will change? i.e. be something we EFI customers can publically download and/or be provided with access to (via some registration process)?

Dependancies can get expensive and part of the lure of EFI setup is to control that expense while providing user flexibility as modifications are made to the car. I'd even be willing to pay a small annual subscription fee if it would ensure a regular stream of useful updates (software and firmware) and help pay for continued development.

On a side note, I was very impressed that EFI's own web site mentions that dyno tuning is NOT the end-all-be all for tuning one's car -- it should be just the start, not the end.

Charlie,

Do you offer any support for MAP switching?



That would be very interesing indeed.

Thanks, Rob.

Rob,
I am working on a couple things to help streamline support for our customers. Currently, ALL customers get new software releases for free as it is available. The current version is V7.1.7 for the Lotus version. Firmware updates are not applicable to ALL ECUs. I.e. the non-DBW cars have not needed any updates for a while. The DBW cars last update was March of this year. If anyone is ever in doubt of thier current firmware they can email me the Checksum value in the file folder (left side column) found in the Editor.

In the near future we are going to work on setting up our own internal iLink. This will allow for us to monitor your ECU functions as you're on the dyno via wireless internet. We will also offer engine mapping (tuning) via this service as well.

I realize your Map Select swithing question was directed to Charlie. I would like to also comment that we are going to offer customers an option for "push to pass" if they want it. This will run in parallel with the Current Map Switch feature already included in every kit. Specifics of the map or push to pass option will vary per application.

Kris

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by MaineLotus

BTW, the reason for the melt down was an overboost. When Frank removed the failed flex pipe (restricted, see pics) from the exhaust, it created an overboost situation.

This is why we have a boost limit function.

[robains]

Thanks for the info Charlie. OBDII port switch would be easy to set up (very accessible).

If you released software/hardware necessary to flash the stock ECU (for all current variants, Elise, Exige S, Exise S 240, etc.) that could be a big winner (leverage what everyone already has). Do you know how many flashes the stock ECU can handle? I know CMOS (or whatever non-volatile memory is used) does have a limit (some as high as 1000's, some as low as 10) -- curious if the stock ECU has any such limit (could be applicable to EFI 1.2 also??).

Kris/Charlie -- I don't think anyone is interested in seeing less Lotus options, the more the merrier, but I agree that often fact/fiction is mingled to sell a product.

dmh for example still has not described why EFI 1.2 is for race cars only? This is information that really isn't helping anyone, just creates more friction when it goes unqualified. What is it about EFI 1.2 that can't make it viable on street cars?

Charlie and Kris, you both seem like good people to me and I look forward to learning information from you both.

Rob.

[Bender Rodríguez]

Originally Posted by MaineLotus

Unrestricting the exhaust caused the problem. Your right, not enough fuel because of too much oxygen from too much boost. Before the restriction was removed, low boost. After removal, high boost and ...

If what your saying is right then that’s even more concerning. That means the wastegate system wasn't the only thing controlling the amount of boost. If he doesn't fix it the insufficient wastegate system will create the same problem again.

Also I would expect too high boost to cause a pre detonation failure.

[jim-clayton]

The Lotus ECU may/could/ be a million times better than sliced bread.

But I cannot adjust it. I can't access it. I can't tweak it. I don't know the crack.

I don't know how to program the flashing 12:00 on my VCR.

Hope I don't sound too defensive.

[robains]

LOL

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by jim-clayton

The Lotus ECU may/could/ be a million times better than sliced bread.

But I cannot adjust it. I can't access it. I can't tweak it. I don't know the crack.

I don't know how to program the flashing 12:00 on my VCR.

Hope I don't sound too defensive.

Very well said, Jim. For me, it was worth whatever I needed to pay to achieve complete "tuning freedom". For most, a more universal flash will work. For me...I just can't live like that

After it's all said and done, the EFI has been everything I hoped it would be and Kris has been an absolute gentleman to work with

Cheers,

Phil

[Dave]

Originally Posted by turbophil

Very well said, Jim. For me, it was worth whatever I needed to pay to achieve complete "tuning freedom". For most, a more universal flash will work. For me...I just can't live like that

After it's all said and done, the EFI has been everything I hoped it would be and Kris has been an absolute gentleman to work with

Cheers,

Phil

I'll second that too. Kris even called on a Sunday to check my install progress and make sure it was going well...darn near ran my cell phone battery dry He's a class-act and knows his stuff well. The EFI is everything I hoped it would be and then some.

[darkSol]

I'm in the same boat - I would personally love to have a "Hondata-esque" solution where the stock ECU is reflashed with value-added features via custom software and is completely tunable... retaining all ECU features like "running the gauge cluster"

I'm holding off as long as I possibly can with the hope that it will be available someday but it's looking more and more that the EFI might be the way to go.

If the EFI could have a pure plug-n-play harness without cutting/soldering and it could drive the cluster then I would have it by now...

But I guess I'm still secretly hoping that Charlie will release the Red ECU to the general public... just so I don't have to run two ECUs at once (engine/cluster)... but I'm not holding my breath. He's got until the end of the year... engine management is the Xmas present to myself... somehow...

[robains]

Kris,

I need to get some clarification on what my EFI 1.2 (Lotus) ECU does right now. As I understand it, the cam phasing ...

Each of the chamber volumes is supplied with pressurised engine oil
from a spool valve under ECU control. By varying the relative pressure of the two oil volumes, the positional
relationship of the camshaft to the sprocket can be altered. The ECU monitors engine speed, intake air volume,
throttle position and water temperature to determine the optimum cam phasing for the particular running
conditions, and modulates the duty cycle to the oil control (spool) valve until the desired timing is achieved,
as determined by reference to the crankshaft and camshaft sensors. Duty cycles greater than 50% cause the
timing to be advanced, and duty cycles less than 50% retard the timing. When the target timing is achieved, a
50% 'holding' duty cycle is applied.

...is NOT being controlled by the EFI 1.2 (Lotus) -- aka just either ON or OFF??
If this is accurate, the firmware/software update you will have available soon, will provide control similiar to the stock ECU (as outlined in the quote above)?

Could you clarify?

Thanks, Rob.

[elise/europa]

Rob,

I think that the stock is acting like on and off.

I am not certain, but I understood that the EFI is internally programmed to not run only on on & off mode. It is not because the interface "power to win" don't show the option means that the program don't have it. The EFI 1.2 for the Lotus is not the off the shelve ECU, it is customized for the application, and the difference is probably few features like the Cam timing.

I will be waiting too for the answer from Kris, when I have asked, I did not receive the answer.

[Kris from DRS]

All of the current Lotus spec 1.2 units are capable of modulated VVTi, but it is not currently enabled to use the 3D table already in the software. This will be enabled very soon. The current configuration uses throttle and rpm to determine the cam position for static timing and the same for the "switch-over" which is second cam profile altogether. Dyno data in the past supported for the cams to be at full sweep above 60-70% load on the engine, regardless of the switch-over target. It is possible we will see some efficiency gains and a slight increase in torque/power on the SC engines with continuously adjustabe cam timing. There is more on this topic and other software functions found here DRS Engine Control Support

On the BMW dual-VANOS engines we've tuned with EFI we've seen such gains, but these engines are different in the respect that they do not have a switch-over to a more aggressive cam profile. Instead they are dependent on individual cam timing for both intake and exhaust.

thanks
Kris