EFI misconceptions and rumors

[robains]

Think this thread has an indexing problem, can't get to the last page, just repeats page 5....oh well.

I didn't install the EFI myself, but wish I had now. Found some issues with how the IAT (post IC) sensor was installed -- no bung (which it should have given the length on the sensor probe) -- if you want to do this right, you want to weld a bung on the post IC tube. I just spent today fixing the crap work that was done to my tubing -- grrrr.

If you don't want to do the bung, then use some crush washers (3 or so) and A LOT of sealant and pipe thread.

You can do this without the clam off, just take off the driver side tire and remove the wheel well liner -- easy to access. If you want the Serial cable to run into the interior of the car, then you'll need to go thru a wiring gromet in the bulk head -- not a big deal as some have done this without even removing the seat or harness bar or rear plastic panel.

As far as tuning goes, I went thru at least 3 tunes and all three of them were total crap (car stalled all the time, 6th gear wouldn't accelerate past 100 mph, idle fluctuation - worse with AC on, completely undriveable on the track -- jumping jack VVT on..off..on..off..on. But, I didn't give up hope... I'm hoping the latest software/firmware revision from Kris and a base tuning from Kris will solve all those problems.

If not, well it's back to a stock ECU, sell the car, and go buy a GT-R.

Sorry if I sound harshly realistic here, but I'm giving my experience so far. The EFI gets one more shot and if it doesn't come up trumps, it's back to stock. So far it has cost me a small fortune, well beyond the EFI's purchase price.

My Suggestions/Comments:

1. Nobody stepping up to the plate and using the "race use only" clause as the way out of responsibility
2. EFI 1.2 (Lotus) should not be provided to "any" installer, especially those that can't install it and tune it correctly
3. Exige S kits based on the EFI 1.2 (Lotus) are still advertised with 2.5" pully (again this will just make EFI look bad)
4. The kit was sold for Exige S before it was really ready and it may still not be ready (wait and see if latest firmware/software fixes all the issues)
5. Certification program needs to be established if you want to retain a solid reputation

As much as I respect Kris, these issues should have be addressed BEFORE being sold to Exige S owners. It would have been nice (especially in my case) if Kris had come to me and said he'll resolve all my issues free of charge, but no such offer and it'll cost me another $500-$1000 to get yet another dyno tune from Kris once I get this motor back in the car.

How much do I have into this car, just a tad over $102,000 and only about 15-18 laps to show for it and 7,000 miles. Pretty sad actually.

Rob.

[MaineLotus]

Hi Rob,

My comments are sincere and not intended to start a heated debate, but.. Have you considered asking Charlie for a tune using the stock ECU? He's 'relatively' local to you, seems like an easy fix to a big problem. There are some mechanical issues also, but this would probably eliminate the ECU problems. Good luck getting this going, I know it must be frustrating.

John

[robains]

I have considered it and it will be one of two alternatives if this EFI 1.2 (Lotus) will not work to my satisfaction. However, I don't think CharlieX is in any position to step up to the plate either -- I've been made aware that ECU issues and engine expires have occurred on both sides of the fence (regardless of pully size). Everyone in this business has an "out clause" - not that it is a bullet proof safety net, but who wants to spend the money to challenge it?

The only positive is that once I finally get this motor in (this week I hope) it will be done with quality and care and I'll have the tools (sensors up the nose) to really look at how to make this a very reliable safe motor. Of course, this IS assuming I don't run into more hack jobs -- I have not inspected how the EFI was wired into the stock harness yet and this "could" be another ugly mess that'll I'll have to fix before dropping the motor back in.

Also, I have yet to determine how I'm going to fix my butterfly in my throttle body that was apparently drilled and then JB welded. Called Toyota and they will NOT sell just the butterfly, if I want that fixed it $1000+ new throttle body or spend a day surfing junk yards. I'm looking into finding someone that can weld the holes and then make flush -- I may have a friend that can help out. These holes were drilled in an attempt to "cure" the idle oscillation problem after installing the FF kit.

Yeah it is frustrating. More so when I've attached good $$$ to it.

Rob.

[dmh]

Rob-

A standalone ECU, as you and others are learning the hard way, is not a "bolt-on" but rather are designed for off road applications and needs to be tuned by a professional with all the required tools at his disposal (steady state dyno, test track, scopes, full service shop with trained technicians, etc.)

No certification need be required. Do not confuse EFI with either DRS or ForceFed -- they are merely marketing to Lotus enthusiasts.

Always trying to be helpful and informative...

PS -- I have a buyer for your EFI!

[dmh]

What engine/tune has CharlieX ever had an "issue" with?

[MaineLotus]

Have not heard of a single engine expiring due to Charlie's tunes (Gotham, Ronin, etc.), I'd be surprised to hear this is actually true.

Hang in there, it sounds like you have some things under control and identifying the problems is half the battle.

[charliex]

Rob,

I'm more than happy to help you with your tune on the stock ecu, but i've never blown an engine up,.

[robains]

Don,

I paid for all that "professionalism", it didn't make any difference to the life of motor #1. I appreciate your EFI buyer -- may still be in the cards, but DRS get their shot to make good -- and this time around I'll have the tools to know good from bad. As far as bolt-on, not sure I find the relevance there. I've built and tuned other motors so I'm aware at what is needed -- VVT is the only variance I see here.

Still not sure I understand your "off road" reference, my first track experinece with my EFI 1.2 (Lotus) setup was a car that was EXTREMELY difficult to drive on the track due to how the VVT would go into violent convultions as it kept switching the cams. If this is designed for "off road" only then it clearly has a LONG way to go. Some of these issues were able to be tuned out somewhat but at a loss of lower end power/TQ. The entire point of VVT is to provide best of both worlds with smooth low rpm driveability AND good high rpm power.

I disagree, certification of installers/marketers and tuning should be required, in fact, if it were required, I think we'd see far fewer problems. As interesting as VVT is, this really is NOT rocket science, and these aren't F1 motors with exotic materials. Sure it's not a bolt on and takes some additional reading/understanding to figure out exactly how the EFI works with the existing sensors and some new sensors.

I'll hang in there for a little while, but not going to keep this up forever.

[charliex]

Unfortunately here is no industry standard for tuning certification, EFI university is trying to become that standard, ben strader is an awesome tuner and well known, and a lot of places have already accepted their certificate, i did that certification last year, but i never use the certificate.

A lot of the certification places are just diploma mills anyway, how to tune can be learnt in a day since its just simple math, but then you pick up all the things that go wrong on the dyno itself, you get the cert after 18 hours dyno i think, i'm around 200 hours and i'm still learning all the ins and outs.

[robains]

Part of my point wasn't just the "tuning" certification but includes several factors:

1. Coming up with a complete kit that works safely
2. Installation of the kit
3. And finally dyno tuning (if necessary)

I'll admit, it is pretty rare to see certifications in this business, but I just can't see how long the clause "race only" is going to survive on street based cars. I'm certainly not trying to trivialize the necessary knowledge, in fact, just the opposite - hence certifications.

Charlie, do you have a pricing structure and turn around schedule for stock ECU reflash? Also, is there any switching ability to return to stock ECU map (aka one that can be used to pass smog)?

I have onboard accelerometers with GPS for speed (pretty darn good ones in my IQ3 dash/data logger) so I can easily evaluate the real world effectiveness of a tune either with EFI or a reflash to determine if I'm loosing or gaining power (along with EGT, AFR, IAT, etc. etc.).

Rob.

[Bavarian Motorist]

The obvious benefit of EFI vs. Charlie is that it's not realistic to keep going to Charlie and making changes as you need them, but EFI allows you to do that. The other end of that is that Charlie will get it right the 1st time and not do a service that does not work. He cares about his reputation.


So if you intend to make some modifications (or not), be done, then get a one-time fix from Charlie and recoup some of your ASTRONOMICAL ($102,000??) expenditures from the EFI. If you think you want to keep "tinkering" and making additions/changes, the EFI is probably easier, but not "guaranteed" as you've had problems getting a proper tune in the past.



I don't understand the "off road only" thing. Are these incompetent tuners using that as an excuse to not give you a healthy, functioning product? I don't see the relevance. It's not like you're buying crack.

[robains]

That's my point, get certified EFI tuners and have certified kits -- if the kit needs a wideband, then why does it come with a narrowband? If the kit is supposed to be easy to get back to smog legal (will pass smog test) then why is the harness hard wired in? To put a very fine point on this, one can't be charging this kinda money for Kit that is very unfinished. Can the fuel pump and fuel rail even deliver reliable pressure for 550ci injectors? All my 550 injectors appear to flow just fine with a good spray and within tolerances of each other. But does that mean I had adequate fuel pressure? I don't know -- yes, yet another sensor I need to add -- in this case I think I'll just feed from the fuel pressure wire going into the stock ECU.

That $102,000 includes cost of the car ($75K) out the door (tax and license). The EFI has incurred about $16K (including cost of FF kit, sensors, DBW kit, tunes, new short block, etc.) the rest are track bits $11K. And that's doing motor #2 work myself.

I'm on the "edge" right now -- deciding whether to keep the car or just go sell it and get a GT-R (they actually have one in Walnut Creek on display - no mark ups as the dealer would get dropped from their allotment if they did).

Part of my frustration is I keep running into more and more hacks as I progress -- I got a lot of really cool stuff setup for this car now, but I keep hitting on these other issues one after another -- and they'll fail if I don't take care of them and do it right -- especially on track.

I haven't ruled out going to Charlie and appreciate his offer -- hopefully he can answer my questions above.

[dmh]

Off-road? OBDII? What is missing?

More importantly, from the comments above it is clear that the level of understanding about the race/track verses street is grossly misunderstood. The reason I post in threads like this is to help illuminate those who want it -- not to argue. So in that light, remember that a team of engineers worked on the Lotus ECU. An aftermarket ECU like Motec and EFI will not have the level of detail needed to rival street drivability. The track is another matter but this thread involves dual purpose cars.

Certification: We have the EFI certification. It’s worthless.

[robains]

Don,

Knowing Lotus, it's probably just one engineer, not a team But again, why does my stock ECU have an EFi logo on it?

VVT is intended to be dual purpose, that's why it exists. If your reference about "off-road" is because VVT has no place in racing, then OK -- I can understand that. VVT isn't necessary for a track/racing duty. In fact, it's a lot of extra complexity you wouldn't want in a race car. Maybe this is what you're getting at Don??

[charliex]

Originally Posted by robains

Part of my point wasn't just the "tuning" certification but includes several factors:

1. Coming up with a complete kit that works safely

3 kits to do that now, tripoint v1 and 2, katana, and next the vf, there are well over 100 cars running all over the world.

2. Installation of the kit

ASE/SAE provides something for this, but a lot of shops just don't or can't pay for the costs involved, plus 'certified' usually just means i took a 1 or 3 day course, turned to page 12 and drew moustaches on the figures, and now i charge twice as much.

You're a software guy i think ?, think MSCE, even the cisco advanced ones, they're next to useless, its just something easy to ask for in an interview, they're looking for someone that has shown willingness to go and take the course and expand, but you cram it all in a nite and pass easily.

3. And finally dyno tuning (if necessary)

it shouldn't be necessary unless the car is different somehow, OEM's manage to cover all their bases with one set of tunes, plus the odd update for fixes.

I'll admit, it is pretty rare to see certifications in this business, but I just can't see how long the clause "race only" is going to survive on street based cars. I'm certainly not trying to trivialize the necessary knowledge, in fact, just the opposite - hence certifications.

race only isn't because of certification issues, its because of the EPA laws that basically make it unrealistic or extremely difficult to make a streetable kit for small production runs, you're talking $10,000 to $20,00 for CARB certification for every kit, the lotus marque is extremely price sensitive and there is just not a lot of profit in it.

every time the car was modded or tuned , it'd have to be recertified to keep it streetable, once you've done the first round of CARB and passed, any mods you make are either retested or supplied with a massive amount of paperwork covering why the changes made won't affect smog (if they don't), if their engineers agree they'll pass it, if not you retest at cost.

Given that from what i can tell the EFI standalones are going out with a fairly large set of different tunes for, so that'd be impractical, then i don't believe it supports OBD II so it couldn't be legally certified anyway, yes you could drop back to the stock ecu but it'd have to work and all the OBD II subsystems as well.

Experience is what counts, i've been very lucky that i have people around me with decades of experience that share it with me.

I've seen smart people pass tough courses to get the certification, and they know nothing about the subject, and i betcha there is nothing in the course that covers when stuff goes wrong, only the basic stuff, its like the bible lots of subjective empathy and anecdotes, but no real answers.

Charlie, do you have a pricing structure and turn around schedule for stock ECU reflash? Also, is there any switching ability to return to stock ECU map (aka one that can be used to pass smog)?

The katana's will pass a sniffer test and OBD II , none will pass a true CARB test, since they are not EO'd, that goes for any state as its a federal requirement, but it won't matter since the car won't pass a visual with an aftermarket that isn't EO'd. The CVN (checksum) will be different too, but no one that i know actually checks it.

All the pricing and turnaround is on my faq at Temporary goth.am webstore - excuse our dust!

I have onboard accelerometers with GPS for speed (pretty darn good ones in my IQ3 dash/data logger) so I can easily evaluate the real world effectiveness of a tune either with EFI or a reflash to determine if I'm loosing or gaining power (along with EGT, AFR, IAT, etc. etc.).

Rob.

You could tell raw acceleration but it won't tell you anything about quality of idle, driveability or what the AFR's are doing, dyno run, then street tune, a week later revisit the tune tweak it and let it settle, the owner gives feedback and change it based on that, thats what i usually do with the custom tunes.

Steady state dyno (if your clutch is upto it) and a few hours tuning should get it almost perfect, then you just look for the 'throttle stab lag' and such on the street/track.


like don says, the certificate, its worthless, i enjoyed the course i went on but mainly because i got to ask questions from a guy with tonnes of real world experience and he was very willing to share it which is very uncommon, all the other stuff you read in a book, its just physics, then you learn all the interesting stuff actually doing it.

[dmh]

Originally Posted by robains

Don,

Knowing Lotus, it's probably just one engineer, not a team But again, why does my stock ECU have an EFi logo on it?

VVT is intended to be dual purpose, that's why it exists. If your reference about "off-road" is because VVT has no place in racing, then OK -- I can understand that. VVT isn't necessary for a track/racing duty. In fact, it's a lot of extra complexity you wouldn't want in a race car. Maybe this is what you're getting at Don??

My comments have nothing to do with VVT but rather the ability of someone to take a unit like EFI, install it on a street driven car, and have it perform as good as or better than the stock ecu in varying conditions (temperature, pressure, humidity, and altitude), load levels, fuel variations, etc. In my 20 plus years of doing this sort of work I have never met a professional tuner that thinks he can out tune a factory engineering staff.

Why do you assume it different?
Why do you see ecu race engineers at the track?
And why are they tweaking on the maps constantly during a race weekend?

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by robains

That's my point, get certified EFI tuners and have certified kits -- if the kit needs a wideband, then why does it come with a narrowband?

It comes with a narrowband for probably the same reason as the OEM ECU, to save on costs. But it will easily work with a variety of widebands. I recommend widebands if they are within the budget.

Originally Posted by robains

If the kit is supposed to be easy to get back to smog legal (will pass smog test) then why is the harness hard wired in?

The ability to revert back to stock is there regardless of the intent. We found it better to at least give someone the option rather than not. In its original design it was intended to work specifically with a dedicated complete replacement wire harness. A mil-spec race level harness. It was redesigned into its current form as a result from request to reduce the cost and allow the stock instrumentation to work.

Originally Posted by robains

To put a very fine point on this, one can't be charging this kinda money for Kit that is very unfinished.

It is an evolving product. As it gets updates we update customers. It does its job as providing the end user an interface to map the engine and works with the stock triggers and stock sensors. Most standalone systems do not so easily.

Originally Posted by robains

Can the fuel pump and fuel rail even deliver reliable pressure for 550ci injectors?

Yes, I have personally tuned several cars over 300 HP with the stock fuel pump and fuel rail. Only one example is Fred Zust, who is now the National Champion in his class. His old turbo set up was making 320 WHP with the stock rail and pump.

Originally Posted by robains

All my 550 injectors appear to flow just fine with a good spray and within tolerances of each other. But does that mean I had adequate fuel pressure?

Correct, you might have a fuel pressure issue, and this should be verified to make sure. It can be tested mechanically.

Originally Posted by robains

I don't know -- yes, yet another sensor I need to add -- in this case I think I'll just feed from the fuel pressure wire going into the stock ECU.

The stock ECU does not have an analogue fuel pressure input, nor does the stock wire harness. We can provide an adapter loom that will accomodate a fuel pressure sensor that plugs directly into the "Option" connector in your DRS wire harness for the EFI.

Originally Posted by robains

That $102,000 includes cost of the car ($75K) out the door (tax and license). The EFI has incurred about $16K (including cost of FF kit, sensors, DBW kit, tunes, new short block, etc.) the rest are track bits $11K. And that's doing motor #2 work myself.

It's obvious that you had an unfortunate experience that should have never occured. Like I have said, whatever I can do to help I will.

Originally Posted by robains

I'm on the "edge" right now -- deciding whether to keep the car or just go sell it and get a GT-R (they actually have one in Walnut Creek on display - no mark ups as the dealer would get dropped from their allotment if they did).

Part of my frustration is I keep running into more and more hacks as I progress -- I got a lot of really cool stuff setup for this car now, but I keep hitting on these other issues one after another -- and they'll fail if I don't take care of them and do it right -- especially on track.

You're right. You should make sure you are satisfied w/ the results. I cannot comment on the previous work done to the car, but I am confident that we can help you get it all sorted out.

Originally Posted by robains

I haven't ruled out going to Charlie and appreciate his offer -- hopefully he can answer my questions above.

Charlie has his product and it works fine for its purpose. We have certain features we allow the end user to determine, and we can customize systems upon request. It's a matter of making sure that you feel your set up suits your needs. It's a shame you still have not got to experinece how well your current set up can work. Hopefully you will get to before you decide otherwise.

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by dmh

My comments have nothing to do with VVT but rather the ability of someone to take a unit like EFI, install it on a street driven car, and have it perform as good as or better than the stock ecu in varying conditions (temperature, pressure, humidity, and altitude), load levels, fuel variations, etc. In my 20 plus years of doing this sort of work I have never met a professional tuner that thinks he can out tune a factory engineering staff.

Why do you assume it different?
Why do you see ecu race engineers at the track?
And why are they tweaking on the maps constantly during a race weekend?

Don,
As someone who is employed for these specific tasks I will agree with you that in most cases it would be silly to assume that anyone can take a standalone and get the same or better results than the factory engineers in ALL conditions.

I am one of those guys you have seen at the track with the laptop tweaking, etc... However, I am also one of those guys who has spent months on different dynos with different cars comparing maps, testing cars in real world conditions, traveling to different parts of the country, i.e. Wisconsin winter in sub-zero weather to tune as well as tuning in the middle of summer in Tempe AZ.

Even with all that I still advise people to remember that this is a stand-alone unit and we still encourage people to make sure thier engine is optimized for thier intended use on a dyno. But than again...that's the whole point. If you can't do this or are unwilling to pay someone to do this for you than this is not the product for you.

Kris

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by robains

Don,

I paid for all that "professionalism", it didn't make any difference to the life of motor #1. I appreciate your EFI buyer -- may still be in the cards, but DRS get their shot to make good -- and this time around I'll have the tools to know good from bad. As far as bolt-on, not sure I find the relevance there. I've built and tuned other motors so I'm aware at what is needed -- VVT is the only variance I see here.

Still not sure I understand your "off road" reference, my first track experinece with my EFI 1.2 (Lotus) setup was a car that was EXTREMELY difficult to drive on the track due to how the VVT would go into violent convultions as it kept switching the cams. If this is designed for "off road" only then it clearly has a LONG way to go. Some of these issues were able to be tuned out somewhat but at a loss of lower end power/TQ. The entire point of VVT is to provide best of both worlds with smooth low rpm driveability AND good high rpm power.

I disagree, certification of installers/marketers and tuning should be required, in fact, if it were required, I think we'd see far fewer problems. As interesting as VVT is, this really is NOT rocket science, and these aren't F1 motors with exotic materials. Sure it's not a bolt on and takes some additional reading/understanding to figure out exactly how the EFI works with the existing sensors and some new sensors.

I'll hang in there for a little while, but not going to keep this up forever.

Rob, thanks for giving us (DRS) the chance to at least reinstill some confidence in what you have. I think its fair to say that you did not have a functional set up as intended.

I'm looking forward to tuning your car.

thanks,
Kris

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by dmh

Rob-

A standalone ECU, as you and others are learning the hard way, is not a "bolt-on" but rather are designed for off road applications and needs to be tuned by a professional with all the required tools at his disposal (steady state dyno, test track, scopes, full service shop with trained technicians, etc.)

No certification need be required. Do not confuse EFI with either DRS or ForceFed -- they are merely marketing to Lotus enthusiasts.

Always trying to be helpful and informative...

PS -- I have a buyer for your EFI!

Don,
Don't confuse me (DRS) with anyone else. We have worked closely with EFI for several years on several projects. I've personally been involved with mapping and data analysis for customers in various forms of professional motorsport. You can have your opinions of FF and anyone else, but you don't know me or my history so please refrain from assuming that we are merely marketing to the Lotus community.

You don't see me going around making assumptions about your business and your services. And as a fellow LCS sponsor I would hope you would have the same courtesy, but you seem to like "tip toeing" on the edge and its pretty obvious. Not sure why...

Kris