EFI STANDALONE VERSUS REFLASH

[elise/europa]

First, I am not working for any dealer or parts supplier.

Secondo, the answer for me to the question on the title is EFI Standalone.

My car is supercharged with a Katana kit.

Last year I was running with a Charlie reflash. The car was running great. Of course, the set-up was as it was supposed, stock katana set-up.

At the end of the last summer I decided to go with a standalone EFI to obtain more flexibility. Since I decided to change the throttle body control from a DBW to a drive by cable, the change was more complex than a usual switch.

Until last week I was quite satisfy with the EFI standalone, but it was not perfect, not really a nice daily car, and more like a racing car on street. Why last week? It is just because the latest improvement on the firmware (program controlling the ECU, like Windows for your computer) is just wonderful. I installed it last Saturday. Now the car is like a racing car with daily capability, as good as a reflash ECU from Charlie, and probably better in fact.

For sure, the EFI set-up is now mature to be used by everyone. Of course, with the standalone, you can control everything on the engine without restriction. My rev limiter is now 8900 rpm (with Eibach spring and MWR valve), I am using a PPE headers, Fujita air filter, 3.2 blower pulley.

Of course, not everything is perfect. Not all a time easy to deal with DRS, but not worst than dealing with Charlie when you are not a personal friend. I still not happy with the service of Forcefed, when they took the order it was just a joke, with a lot of miscommunication. It is strange also to realize that I never receive any e-mail or call from them (Forcefed or DRS) saying that new firmware was available to improve the set-up. The better guy is clearly Phil (BOE fabrication), I just don’t understand his motivation to be that nice. I received all a time the updated firmware from him.

Anyway, the EFI stand alone is a very nice set-up at the moment, big thanks to Phil who is motivated and have enough pushing to obtain the improvement on the right direction.

If you have money for and want to do future modifications on your car, go with the stand alone EFI instead than reflash. The choice to go with EFI is very interesting as a stand alone since it is enough quantity of user to receive attention from the integrator like EFI themselves and DRS.

Thanks again Phil, my car is running so great now, and I can now going deeper in term of modification in the future.

[turbophil]

Hey Marc,

You're very welcome! I'm super happy to hear that it all came together.

While we're thanking, your wiring diagrams were much appreciated and very helpful...

I'll be interested to hear how Serge does against you on the track with your EFI mods and tune. I think you're going to have your hands very full with Serge with his TVS setup

Take care friend,

Phil

[breinhar]

Quick question: Why did you switch back to cable throttle? Is the EFI not good with the DBW?

[jim-clayton]

Nice write up. I haven't installed the new firmware yet. My car's running real nice and I didn't want to mess with it. I guess I need to go ahead and update the firmware.

[darkSol]

Jim, get the new firmware - it rocks!

Seriously.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by breinhar

Quick question: Why did you switch back to cable throttle? Is the EFI not good with the DBW?

I've asked Marc about this before. If I recall it was because he wanted control of the throttle rather than leaving the stock ECU in control of it and didn't want to buy the additional DBW control module at the time. A year and half ago, the support and development for this solution was pretty thin- especially on the DBW cars... Today--- a much different story
Personally, I THINK it was because he wanted the cool looking 05 throttle pedal rather than the god-awful DBW pedal

DBW:
FWIW- the newest model of the EFI computers will have an internal DBW controller for those that really want it. It's not really needed for the NA DBW cars that are going to FI, as the throttle bodies open all the way up on the NA cars... For some of the S cars switching to EFI, the module will be nice as the stock ECU doesn't open the S throttle plate all the way open and a controller is needed to get it opened up...

In summary, the EFI is just fine for DBW cars. There are a bunch of them out there running it both with and without a controller... On the controller front, Robains (on the forum) has done a lot with the DBW controller as far as making throttle ramps, tweaks, etc. He's probably done as much or more with the DBW controller itself on our cars as anyone....

Cheers,

TP

[elise/europa]

The reason for having drive by cable... For sure it is not rational. I had trouble in the past with limp mode (with the Reflash set-up, but the reflash was not the cause).

Since I want to stick many years again with my car, I decided to minimise all electronic module. The DBW set-up is designed to meet pollution control, and to suit many device like stability control, traction control and bla bla bla. In case of trouble, a DBW throttle body is very expensive too. Drive by cable is more easy to diagnostic in case of trouble.

Other good thing with the drive by cable is: it is more easy to have a set-up to adjust the gas pedal relative to the brake pedal for the heel (how we spell that, I am french) and toe. Also, when I am working into the engine, I don't need to go inside the car to open the throttle body.

But it is few bad things: More sticky pedal feel; more pedal travel; very expensive switch over (engine hardness is just too much expensive).

For sure, it is rational at all. An Elise is not rational too!

[CUP_240]

Thanks for the write up ...

I have a 08 Exige S 240 thats DBW ... Im in the process of going turbo ...

What parts are required to convert from DBW to Cable ?

I thought it would just be TB and Pedal if running standalone ecu .....

Thanks for the advice ....

[elise/europa]

Cup 240, close to every parts are available from Lotus to transform it, like pedal, cable, bushing except:
-Bracket to hold the cable inside the cabin, I can provide picture if you want,
-bracket to hold the cable to the pedal (need a carburator linkage like we find on Weber),
-the bracket to hold the cable on the throttle body side,
-the barrel on the throttle body to have the right size,
-gas pedal stopper back anf for (I think that the back-up when release is not existing on Lotus)
- and the shaft to hold the gas pedal. Don't buy the one by Lotus, they are confused on part number, two differents parts with teh same parts number, they probably revised the drawing whatever the parts is not retrofitable. You need to build in extension shaft.

In my case, since I am running with the original dash, and because I am paranoid, I wanted the possibility to switch with the Lotus ECU in case of trouble with the EFI... OK a lot paranoid... I am running with a 2005 Lotus ECU and 2005 engine hardness (expensive). But if you are fully standalone, for sure, you don't need that. Remember that the dash on the car is drived by the ECU using communication protocole. I think Phil is running a completely different dash connected to his EFI ECU, which is nice, but quite expensive, but nice (maybe a future project for me, don't know...). The original dash communicate with the 2005 ECU or DBW ECU.

[Kris from DRS]

Marc,

I'm glad you're happy with the newest firmware. It's been something we've been working on for a while.

The system is constantly evolving and improving over time. Just like all other computer related products. As we make improvements and pass them onto our dealers we count on them to help thier customer's. BOE has gone above and beyond and we appreciate thier assistance.

We're trying to get everyone converted over to this new firmware, but it's going to be a process that will take some time. I don't have a log of all the Forcedfed customers who have EFI so I hope that thru these forums they will eventually get updates.

Our website is also under recent construction and will have more info as well, but there is some info to be found here Dynamic Racing Solutions - Complete ECU Control for the Lotus Elise and Exige S.

thanks!
Kris

[CUP_240]

Great, thanks for that parts list elise/europa ...

Can anyone tell me, if i have a EFI standalone that was on a DBW car will it work on my cable throttle vehicle ???

[turbophil]

Yep- You can make it do whatever you want regardless of what your car was or is within regards to the TB... The lotus is your oyster

[CUP_240]

haha Thanks Phil ,

Ive just purchased a used EFI standalone and i know it was removed from a DBW but im definetly going cable so just wanted to make sure it would all be ok ...

Also if i wanted to upgrade to the EFI dash display, does anyone have a link on what the specs are and also price please ???

Thanks again ...

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by CUP_240

haha Thanks Phil ,

Ive just purchased a used EFI standalone and i know it was removed from a DBW but im definetly going cable so just wanted to make sure it would all be ok ...

Also if i wanted to upgrade to the EFI dash display, does anyone have a link on what the specs are and also price please ???

Thanks again ...

The EFI has a data stream output that is built into the wire harness.

The EFI dash is currently not available, but we really like the Pi Research Omega dash.

You can read more info on our site here Dynamic Racing Solutions - Pi Omega D2 Dash Display Data System

thanks,
Kris

[Kris from DRS]

here is a video of the Pi dash in demonstration mode. Note the satellite shift light module that allows for placement of the shift lights to you liking as opposed to potentially obstructed by the steering wheel.

http://www.racesolutions.com/images/Pi_Omega_video.AVI

The back panel with indicator LEDs is optional

[charliex]

I'm not sure where you get the 'personal friend' thing from, i try to treat everyone the same way, is there someway the reflash didn't work as it was supposed too or something you needed from me that didn't work out, if so i'm not aware of it.

I'd be happy to go toe to toe with any of the standalone EFI reflashes, since the computer lotus uses is basically the same, plus we have the AIM unit, which you can run of the stock computer, or the Dash2, or a few other units i've added to the market ( for free ! )

[robains]

I've been working my way thru the EFI firmwares with my DBW 07 Exige S -- I have to agree the latest firmware is even more daily driver friendly and seems to have much improved Accel.

It's sad to see folks dropping DBW and going cable -- how often do you hear DBW folks complaining about a stuck throttle cable? Or an idle screw that backed out? I don't think DBW is about smog, it's just a better and more modern system. I think DBW got a bad rap because of other issues -- I know I strayed thinking the Lotus DBW system was bad but that appears not to be the case (it was 3rd party install/tuning issues, not the DBW unit).

Kris at DRS (aka is DRS) spent over 6 hours one day recently working thru daily driver issues with me (he was sitting in my Lotus while I drove) and explained to me what to look for and how to correct/adjust to meet my pretty high standards of driveability. I couldn't imagine anyone else doing that for a customer. So Kris is available, but you just have to arrange it and hope his schedule permits it (he has to earn a living so I'm pretty sure he doesn't sit around waiting for phone calls to answer questions).

The other benefits of DBW is that you really can control the throttle curve and make it work to one's driving style. You can change the throttle degree angles at various set points to meet track needs vs. street needs. Or for finer small throttle changes have more setpoints in a narrower throttle degree range say from 9.5 - 30 degree and make the setpoint wider for WOT operations -- or visa-versa.

Also, the Accel features seem to work a little better on DBW cars.

If you have a Turbo application and the car is a little too on/off with boost (mega boost or a weak wastegate), you can create finer resolutions (setpoints) around the throttle degree range where the turbo gets a little twitchy.

Lots of options with EFI and that's what I like. EFI might initially be a little pricey, but based on the frequency of my changes to the car, EFI is really the long term cost effective solution for me.

Rob.

[charliex]

Yeah the DBW is not bad, it can snap open and closed faster than you can move your foot, lots of torque and precision in it.

[robains]

Originally Posted by elise/europa

...My rev limiter is now 8900 rpm (with Eibach spring and MWR valve), I am using a PPE headers, Fujita air filter, 3.2 blower pulley.

WoW, I missed that - 8900!!! Dang you're brave -- I have the Eibach springs, SuperTech coated valves, DRS head work and I thought 8400 was on the edge! But you've got it at 8900! Did you also change oil pump gears?

Rob

P.S. Marc, I used to live in Quebec, Dorval to be exact -- yes, right next to the airport. Sailed the St. Lawrence river many times during the summer months.

[elise/europa]

Robains,

Stock, I was all a time on rev. limiter, sometime to don't shift for only 100-300 feet. I did the calculation with the stock, and theorically, the valve are slightly floating. The Eiback spring compressed go to 144 lbs from OEM 122 lb.

Since the maximum rpm is now 8500 x sqrt (144/122) = 9250, 8900 is seafer than 8500 with the stock spring. I did also the complete calculation (more complex) and the result is the same.

I never changed the oil pump, and yes I feel a little bit affraid about it, I broke one on my Honda engine last year (H22A running at 8000 rpm on vintage Lotus Europa 69).

Best

P.S. I am living Montreal downtown.