EFI Tunning Tips Here

[jim-clayton]

good job Phil!

More hp and torque are a good thing

[dmh]

Originally Posted by turbophil

I guess the point is that there's plenty of ways to get around smog regs, as people do it all the time... Every car community I've been part of contends with it...

The above dyno's are enough of a reason for me to deal with it when it comes to KS, as it's on the horizon...

Cheers,

Phil

"...there's plenty of ways to get around smog regs..." This is your publicly stated position?

[ZAMMY1]

whether it's his position or not, it's a damn well documented fact.
there are few regulations that are impossible to get around.
this doesn't necessarily mean that he's urging others to do illegal acts.
why not climb down off the high horse?
sam

[dmh]

I'm not on any horse; I'm just having fun killing some time noting how foolish it is to install a standalone ecu on a street car. And to top-it-off with (free) tuning tips as if it was a bolt-on. These are serious products for experienced tuners. Race car...that's a different story -- one where standalones like EFI belong. Oh, and that is the position of EFI and Motec.

Legal ramifications for emissions violations can be quite steep in states such as NJ. That applies to the owner and/or installer. Not only are there formalized inspections there are roving ones as well. I know of more than a few people in each of those categories who learned their lesson the hard way.

Not only that but you will never approach the level of drivability the factory offers. Do you really think a few tips here and there can equal what the factory engineers can do with the stock (EFI) ecu? Just contact CharlieX..ahh…

But really, who cares about high performance street cars? Seriously, other than trying to appease one’s ego with a false sense of a life style enhancement what are they for? I guess people really do fall for TV commercials! A public road is a far different environment than a race track. And in this country there is no lack of tracks or events, e.g., road racing, auto-crossing, drifting, and drag racing.

Just giving the other side and having fun doing it…

[turbophil]

Don,

You're making some bold assumptions and quite frankly you're spreading misinformation and that's the very thing I'm trying to stop. I realize you tune cars in your business and whatnot... but until you've tuned this particular product for our particular car, please just ask questions rather than make bold statements as if they're facts...

Drivability of my car is better than factory in all ways that I can sense, Fact. I believe Randy and Fred and Dave have similar experiences... I'm sure there are others, as not all are on the forums (Which always surprises me. I thought everyone was on here).... Idles smoother, has more power, throttle response is better, etc... Feel free to swing out here and give'er a go. We can drive heartland while you're out It's only like 18 hours to get here

Regarding the emissions thing, regardless of flash or standalone they're both bending the law. The car was approved to roll around on the street with the factory tune. Nothing else. To deviate from that whether via standalone or flash, is the same critter unless the particular flash has gone through emission standards. Big deal though, so many people do flashes and piggybacks and standalone and essentially "bolt them on" and go.

I've never seen the pessimism in a car community from posts like the one you just made (I rarely disagree with you, but this time yuo're out in left field) that I have in our community... Yeeesh, spend more time figuring out how to make things work rather than coming up with reasons things won't work and you'll enjoy life much more


Best,

Phil

Originally Posted by dmh

I'm not on any horse; I'm just having fun killing some time noting how foolish it is to install a standalone ecu on a street car. And to top-it-off with (free) tuning tips as if it was a bolt-on. These are serious products for experienced tuners. Race car...that's a different story -- one where standalones like EFI belong. Oh, and that is the position of EFI and Motec.

The legal penalty for emissions violations is quite steep in states such as NJ. Not only are there formalized inspections there are roving ones as well. The financial penalty the vehicle owner faces can be quite steep and that can apply to the registered shop installer as well. I know of more than a few people in each of those categories who learned their lesson the hard way.

Not only that but you will never approach the level of drivability the factory offers. Do you really think a few tips here and there can equal what the factory engineers can do with the stock (EFI) ecu? Just contact CharlieX..ahh…

But really, who cares about high performance street cars? Seriously, other than trying to appease one’s ego with a false sense of a life style enhancement what are they for? I guess people really do fall for TV commercials! A public road is a far different environment than a race track. And in this country there is no lack of tracks or events, e.g., road racing, auto-crossing, drifting, and drag racing.

Just giving the other side and having fun doing it…

[dmh]

Originally Posted by turbophil

Don,

You're making some bold assumptions and quite frankly you're spreading misinformation and that's the very thing I'm trying to stop. I realize you tune cars in your business and whatnot... but until you've tuned this particular product for our particular car, please just ask questions rather than make bold statements as if they're facts...

Drivability of my car is better than factory in all ways that I can sense, Fact. I believe Randy and Fred and Dave have similar experiences... I'm sure there are others, as not all are on the forums (Which always surprises me. I thought everyone was on here).... Idles smoother, has more power, throttle response is better, etc... Feel free to swing out here and give'er a go. We can drive heartland while you're out It's only like 18 hours to get here

Regarding the emissions thing, regardless of flash or standalone they're both bending the law. The car was approved to roll around on the street with the factory tune. Nothing else. To deviate from that whether via standalone or flash, is the same critter unless the particular flash has gone through emission standards. Big deal though, so many people do flashes and piggybacks and standalone and essentially "bolt them on" and go.

I've never seen the pessimism in a car community from posts like the one you just made (I rarely disagree with you, but this time yuo're out in left field) that I have in our community... Yeeesh, spend more time figuring out how to make things work rather than coming up with reasons things won't work and you'll enjoy life much more


Best,

Phil

Look...I'm just having fun. I don't really care one way or the other. I am all in favor of standalones for race cars. How can I be clearer? Yet, their use in a street car mystifies me.

What incorrect assumption or misinformation -- psychological?

Tuning a Lotus with EFI, Motec, and/or Autronics is not rocket science. My colleague has done a few 2ZZs before so may I/we comment?

One interesting thing about EFI is that it has a picture of the PTG 4-door that is now owned by my friend. What is the interesting thing? PTG dumped EFI due to performance issues in favor of Motec. However, the picture stayed.

Here's my question(s): Does EFI market their ecu as street legal in the USA? Or, is using an EFI legal for the overwhelming vast majority of Lotus owners? (No, I don't work for the EFI legal department!)

[2-Y-CHROMOSOMES]

Originally Posted by dmh

Look...I'm just having fun. I don't really care one way or the other. I am all in favor of standalones for race cars. How can I be clearer? Yet, their use in a street car mystifies me.

What incorrect assumption or misinformation -- psychological?

Tuning a Lotus with EFI, Motec, and/or Autronics is not rocket science. My colleague has done a few 2ZZs before so may I/we comment?

One interesting thing about EFI is that it has a picture of the PTG 4-door that is now owned by my friend. What is the interesting thing? PTG dumped EFI due to performance issues in favor of Motec. However, the picture stayed.

Here's my question(s): Does EFI market their ecu as street legal in the USA? Or, is using an EFI legal for the overwhelming vast majority of Lotus owners? (No, I don't work for the EFI legal department!)

Go have fun "with yourself" somewhere else.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by 2-Y-CHROMOSOMES

Go have fun "with yourself" somewhere else.

Some people just don't get it Mark

Anyway, graphs look fantastic Phil! Going out myself here shortly for some fine tuning. Did a cell comparison with your last map and there are a few areas that I think would improve my cruise/low load fuel usage. Overall, the cruise band looks very good, just a couple areas running a tad rich...easy enough to do with a short drive.

Keep up the good work!

--dave

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by dmh

Look...I'm just having fun. I don't really care one way or the other. I am all in favor of standalones for race cars. How can I be clearer? Yet, their use in a street car mystifies me.

What incorrect assumption or misinformation -- psychological?

Tuning a Lotus with EFI, Motec, and/or Autronics is not rocket science. My colleague has done a few 2ZZs before so may I/we comment?

One interesting thing about EFI is that it has a picture of the PTG 4-door that is now owned by my friend. What is the interesting thing? PTG dumped EFI due to performance issues in favor of Motec. However, the picture stayed.

Here's my question(s): Does EFI market their ecu as street legal in the USA? Or, is using an EFI legal for the overwhelming vast majority of Lotus owners? (No, I don't work for the EFI legal department!)

The systems can be revertred to "street mode" by simply reversing connections. What people do with thier cars is up tp them.

As for the MoTec v. EFI issue. I've personally used many standalone systems, including MoTec so I can compare from personal experience. Like many products there are some things EFI can do that MoTec cannot, and vice versa. PTG moved into MoTec because of a personal preference an engineer had with thier product (as far as I know from second hand info). What I do know from first hand, literally working on the cars myself at my shop and at the track, is that the systems PTG sold to Anchor Racing worked perfectly fine. And when Anchor retired those cars were purchased by SW Racer's Grp and Muellerized and they continue to work fine currently. And bare in mind these systems are over 8 yrs old now. I know the politics of racing...i.e. to run a DP car in Grand Am now you have to use Bosch Motorsport ECUs per the rules. Does than mean that the teams running EFI and MoTec before they were forced to switch to Bosch relay the perception that MoTec and EFI are not good products...Obviously not, its simply politics.

It's a free world. We can all have our preferences, but let's not cloud facts with personal opinions.

Kris

[Kris from DRS]

BTW - if it is worth anything. ANd this is just one example. Just look at Real-Time Racing (Acura Team) in Speed World Challenge. All they use is EFI Technology USA and they are the winningist team in the series.

[Randy Chase]

Not today.

Just kidding... they have been dominant this year. Tripoint needs to step up a bit... or perhaps they have?

[dmh]

Originally Posted by Kris from DRS

The systems can be revertred to "street mode" by simply reversing connections. What people do with thier cars is up tp them.

to run a DP car in Grand Am now you have to use Bosch Motorsport ECUs per the rules. Does than mean that the teams running EFI and MoTec before they were forced to switch to Bosch relay the perception that MoTec and EFI are not good products...Obviously not, its simply politics.

It's a free world. We can all have our preferences, but let's not cloud facts with personal opinions.

Kris

The ecu can but I wonder about a modified engine, OBDII codes, readiness, and the like.

Fact, not opinion: Rules forced Bosch whereas the other was a preference. I have no issue with EFI, none.

I'm just saying...

[robains]

As much as I hate to make this post, my motor expired yesterday at Thunderhill raceway. All 4 cylinders have considerable oil in them. I hoping it is just a head gasket. I only got 5 laps before if expired.

So far this Lotus has been the most unreliable street/track I've ever driven. I'll post video later of my in car and what it looked liked from my friend's video.

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by robains

As much as I hate to make this post, my motor expired yesterday at Thunderhill raceway. All 4 cylinders have considerable oil in them. I hoping it is just a head gasket. I only got 5 laps before if expired.

So far this Lotus has been the most unreliable street/track I've ever driven. I'll post video later of my in car and what it looked liked from my friend's video.

Rob, I hope it gets sorted out. I sincerely don't mean any disrespect by saying this, but I don't think this post is applicable to this thread. I am guilty of getting off topic as well, but the idea was to post tuning tips and help w/ the software.

There are a lot of engines out there letting go for various reasons, and most of these cars are running stock ECUs.

Hopefully it is something easily repairable. If you have any questions for me please ask. We are developing many levels of mechanical parts for the 2ZZ as well. We already have proprietary forged pistons and CrMo rods. We also have made huge improvements with the cyl head flow and flow bench analysis data to back it up.

Kris

[robains]

How is my post not relevant? It is perhaps a VERY important tip for all those interested in EFI tuning. Information is gained from both success and failures. My car was retuned by Casey and with assistance from you only 10 days ago. Is there any relationship between the tune and the failure, maybe or maybe not - but this information IS relevant.

I would have thought that someone at FF would have notice the excessive black/brown smoke coming from the exhaust. I don't see how the very recent retuned can be ignored. I do NOT appreciate your post telling me this is not relevant - and then to proceed and sell your "better" parts in the same post.

I would recommend you post a more consumer friendly post considering the money already spent. Your current post is pretty insulting.

[turbophil]

Hey Rob,

That really sucks

What fuel were you running?

Also, were you running the 2.5" pulley that comes in the FF power package?

Finally do you have any idea what kind of timing and AFRs you had? Perhaps you could email me your map so that I can see it? I'd be happy to post what not to do so that others don't fall to the same fate. I know that doesn't help you, but getting some decent guidelines to tune from would be helpful for others... Which, reminds me that I need to post up my timing figures for others as well...

I have one concern about the power pack deal from FF and that revolves around that 2.5" pulley. 2.5" pulley's spin the blower to about 17 psi (pre IC) and about 330 degree charge temps, as we've learned from Frank's (Ronin) car. It also seems that the stock IC has about a 3psi pressure drop and is only about 50% efficient. In light of that, if amb temp was 100ish, you're post IC intake temps are still 200F+ with some 14ish psi boost That's a lot of cylinder pressure- particularly with the stock high compression engine. Intuitively, it would seem that it might be enough pressure to pop an unopened engine (read, stock high compression), with just about any level of tune.

Disclaimer: I can't say for cetain that the the above engine combo is spelling disaster on the track, but it sure doesn't look great on paper... Perhaps with some really good gas it may be OK???

Again, I can take a look at your map and tell you what I think based on what works on my car with 91 octane...

Obviously the EFI didn't kill your engine. However, short of a fuel starve, it's certainly likely that a combination of aggressive tuning, high boost, and high charge temps, lead to the detonation that killed your engine... It would be real nice to know what that combination is exactly to avoid it for others...

Best of luck getting the car back together. Let me know if I can help in any way!

Phil

[robains]

Hi Phil,

I was running 100 octane race gas (unleaded). I'm running this FF Power Package kit. Also have the DBW unit for the EFI. It has been dyno tuned numerous times on 91 octane.

I don't know if it is a 2.5" pully - the kit information doesn't mention the pully size only says "raises boost to 8-10 psi depending on exhaust system upgrades". I'll know pully size soon enough when I start pulling the motor apart and can physically measure it.

I don't know exactly what killed the engine, but I did have a full tank of 100 octane + it was the 1st morning session so ambient was only 78-80 degrees and oil and water temps were all good for track duty.

But yeah, if it is pushing 14 psi boost post IC on a 2.5" pully, then yeah I can see the problem is really too much boost. But like the information on the kit suggests, 8-10 psi so I can't believe a 2.5" pully was being used?? I would have never purchased the kit if it was 14 psi because I know that doubling boost on a stock motor with 11:1 compression is certain death. I hope you're wrong Phil, cause I'll be really pissed if you're correct. I got this kit because it was only 2-3 psi over stock, NOT 7 psi over stock.

[turbophil]

I hope I'm wrong too... It happens a lot so I don't mean to make a mountain out of a molehill

FWIW, Reagrding the boost and pulley, the relationship of boost to diameter isn't linear. For instance going from 3.4" to 3.2 " pulley is 1.5-2 psi increase. So that's a 23% increase in boost from only a 5% decrease in diameter... You started with a ~3.2" pulley on the S I believe...You can see how 2.5" could double your output based on above...

Best,

Phil

[robains]

Can you tell me how you're measuring the diameter of the pully (calipers?)

[ZJChaser]

Originally Posted by robains

Can you tell me how you're measuring the diameter of the pully (calipers?)

I believe the forcefed pulley is more in the 2.6-2.7" range. I'll be checking on my car at the shop in an hour and I'll see it I can measure it for ya. I'm using their pulley in my build.

I also have a 2.4" pulley and it is more than .2" smaller than the FF pulley