My tuning stuff

[charliex]

yeah i keep everything i do in a networked revision repository (subversion) that allows me to pull out any version at any time, of any of the ones i've done.

[2-Y-CHROMOSOMES]

Originally Posted by charliex

yeah i keep everything i do in a networked revision repository (subversion) that allows me to pull out any version at any time, of any of the ones i've done.

good ol' cvs ?

Make sure you backup!
Sorry the old IT guy in me never dies.

[charliex]

nope subversion, i ditched CVS 10 years ago

backed up 3 times a day via rsync to an offsite multi-location raided system, grandfathered, fathered and son on a 7 day cycle, and finally mirrored once a day to another drive.

[avantephoto]

just had a side question on the tuning that you guys have done,...

i'm assuming that you guys did cam timing/tuning as well. were you guys able to eliminate it altogether within the ecu? heck, was it even an issue with the sc application?

and if you guys did, i'm curious if you would be willing to shed some light on the degrees on the cams that were needed for you guys to eliminate it?

[charliex]

cam timing was adjusted yes, i shall claim trade secret though

[avantephoto]

Originally Posted by charliex

cam timing was adjusted yes, i shall claim trade secret though

fair enough. can you maybe shed some light on the ecu controlling the cam timing compared to the celica? i know that you guys have been talking with some of the folks at newcelica,... are there differences? large, small, anything in terms of what the ecu is doing compared to the celica?

[charliex]

i have no idea what the celica is doing but its probably pretty close

[charliex]

Rather than off topic forcedfeds stuff, whom i still have a lot of respect for, heres some of the stuff vortex asked about.

This is the style of rotary encoders that can be used for selecting more than one map, on top of the base ones they have (so you can choose say a 6 position for simplicity) then use a 'shifter' to increase the range, like for example setting position switch and holding the throttle down while turning the key on, or using a seperate one position switch instead.

http://www.apem.com/pdf/PT65_DIP.pdf

Beyond that we have the DashDAQ which is waiting to be delivered from DrewTech any day now i'm promised, right , this can interface to the ecu and show many parameters we'll also be allowing it to do map switching on the ecu's with more than one map, then instead of a number it can be by name, 100 octane map, stock map, lower cam etc.

For those that don't know what the dashdaq is here is a link, http://www.drewtech.com/products/dashdaq.html my company has been involved in the development of this for a while now.

As for the data logging, i've posted a few examples of what the data logger is capable of , i'm using the hugely popular phidgets interfaces for some of it so you can interface your own wham dang doodles, and currently it gets its GPS via NMEA serial port, either virtual or otherwise, the datalogger will come as either a gui, console or as a WIN32 API so you can write and interface your own stuff to it. then the 3 people in the world that want to do this can.

As a secondary to the DashDAQ i have a smaller module that will interface to the ECU , this has a smaller non touchscreen with regular buttons to select different things, it can datalog and control the mappings etc its a unit thats about 2.5 inches. here are some pictures for the doubting thomases, the unit is connected to the development board which is why it looks bigger.

This unit has CAN 1Mpbs capabilities, as well as onboard MCU with lots of interfaces to talk to the outside world, it has 6 switches ( one is reset) the other 5 are used either as cursor and or selection controls, a bit like a pocketpc, I'm still in the early stages of development with this unit, but it should be up and running fairly shortly, the software is the only part currently missing.

Beyond all of these things, we also have the ability to interface to most of the aftermarket cluster kits, we don't have to rely on something not understood well enough by others to bypass, the AIM unit can be used instead of the stock cluster, some of these units have switches on them that could potentially be interfaced back to the ecu for control..

Other things i'd like to do is replace the stock cluster altogether and put something much cooler in, i'm currently looking at getting interfaced to Defi's system but this is early days yet and they don't have all the gauges needed.

Since vortrex is reading something i don't appear to be writing, i'll spell out that these are options, as in my experience most people talk about them as interesting, but few actually want them.

[vortrex]

Originally Posted by charliex

Rather than off topic forcedfeds stuff, whom i still have a lot of respect for, heres some of the stuff vortex asked about.

This is the style of rotary encoders that can be used for selecting more than one map, on top of the base ones they have (so you can choose say a 6 position for simplicity) then use a 'shifter' to increase the range, like for example setting position switch and holding the throttle down while turning the key on, or using a seperate one position switch instead.

http://www.apem.com/pdf/PT65_DIP.pdf

Beyond that we have the DashDAQ which is waiting to be delivered from DrewTech any day now i'm promised, right , this can interface to the ecu and show many parameters we'll also be allowing it to do map switching on the ecu's with more than one map, then instead of a number it can be by name, 100 octane map, stock map, lower cam etc.

For those that don't know what the dashdaq is here is a link, http://www.drewtech.com/products/dashdaq.html my company has been involved in the development of this for a while now.

like I said on the other FF thread, it's cool that gotham will be coming with both these items. it makes the pricing seem much better now.

[charliex]

as i said in the FF, are you reading the same posts i am ?

[vortrex]

I don't know, maybe not? we were having a discussion about the FF S kit vs the gotham kit. you countered many items saying your kit could do this and that. I am assuming you mean it comes with gotham, otherwise your points would make no sense comparing features that do not come with the gotham kit.

[charliex]

It makes perfect sense to me, options are generally optional and don't come with base kits, i don't recall ever saying i was doing a comparison to the gotham tune either ? the post i was responding too was a comparison between the FF/DRS EFi USA unit, and 3rd party flashes as well as the capabilities of the stock ecu, as far as i can see the only person that mentioned the gotham tune is you.

Nearly all our tunes have similar cores, so they can have most of these features added to them.


Plus as i said earlier, most people ooh and ahh at this stuff, but they generally don't need it or use it, its only for a very very small part of an already tiny market.

[vortrex]

I guess that is the problem. I was obviously talking about the gotham S111 kit in my posts (I mentioned it several times) and you are countering me directly yet "not talking about gotham or what comes in a base kit". see where that gets a little strange? you should stay on topic and talk about things that are relevant to the conversation.

[charliex]

Yes you did, and i replied to your concerns, but please point out the part where i've said either of the following things, the base gotham tune comes with these things as part of the price you mentioned, and secondly they are not options on the gotham tunes.

[vortrex]

Originally Posted by charliex

Yes you did, and i replied to your concerns, but please point out the part where i've said either of the following things, the base gotham tune comes with these things as part of the price you mentioned, and secondly they are not options on the gotham tunes.

well again, I was assumming they came with gotham stock since you were directly countering my points. I was comparing FF kit to the S111 kit. I was talking about the stock FF kit, not what FF can do, not what EFI has planned for 2008, etc. you wonder why people on this forum cannot keep things straight about your products and whatnot.

[vortrex]

am I still banned from buying your products or is that something I have to talk to shinoo about since he is the business end?

[charliex]

I don't wonder at all, i know exactly why it is, its because there are a couple of people hell bent on muddying the waters, my post responded to stephens bullets lists, you made an uninformed and incorrect statement, i corrected it , you added hyperbole and went on to something else instead, and thats what you'll keep doing, you've just done it again, once i correct each of your points, you'll dig deeper for something else to move onto, each time getting further and further away from the original conversation.

you made a leap to something that was never mentioned at all by me, i think thats pretty clear, you asked for a picture of the rotary encoder, so i gave you it.

[vortrex]

ok let's do a direct comparison, as things are today, between the FF S kit and the S111 gotham kit. PLEASE, tell me what parts are wrong. I want to have all the facts straight.

FF kit ($4600, 253WHP, 179TQ):

includes..

$3400 EFI stand alone ECU
$ 500 (?) set of 4 550cc injectors
$ ??? different pulley
$ ??? serpentine belt
----------------------
$4200 worth of hardware (guessing on this number)

that means the actual FF tune is say about $400-$500.


S111 "gotham" kit ($2000, 265 crank HP)

$2000 reflash of stock ECU


now, using the 15% conversion for the gotham (which is what you posted) the FF kit is 291HP vs 265HP for the S111 reflash. not only is the actual FF tune 25% the cost of the S111 tune, but it produces more power (obviously, because of the hardware additions). AGAIN, I could be wrong on all this as I am trying to piece numbers together.

[charliex]

Well peak HP numbers are basically of no meaning, especially compared from different dynos and systems, so be careful about relying on that aspect too, its purely marketing talk.

Forcedfed are able to spread the costs of their tune over the the profit margins from the hardware, so your summation of the $200 for a tune isn't based on reality, its just a possibly biased guess to make the tune look cheap, i think thats a fair way to look at it right ? You're also forgetting about installation costs for the ForcedFed kit, another place where profit can be made, i doubt thats done at cost, what do FF charge for install, or is that included in the $4200 ? How much does it cost to uninstall the system?

Whats important is the what does the consumer end up with for the money, so from us your $2000 gets you the 265crank stock ecu with no hardware mods and a trivial installation and later removal if needed, you get the adaptive cam for MPG savings and less wear and tear on the cams themselves, small points perhaps but none the less valid.

What you're basically doing is saying software development is cheap or free, the EFI usa system is sold with tuning software thats sold with all their other ecus, the costs have been paid for , ff/drs didn't make it, nor did they have to pay for its development, we have to factor all of that plus new developments. (kris did have a hand in RnD with the EFI system so theres an aspect there, but i don't know enough of the details to say he didn't pay there, he may have , but it could be backend, only he knows)

At the end of the day what really matters is what improvements does either system give to the consumer, are they happy with what they've bought, i doubt they really care that much about what each individual part costs, they can see the price, see the sheets and numbers and decide what they're happier doing.

Making two lists one with less on it might make you think, well the other thing isn't as good value for money since there is less on the list , to me the smaller list is the more elegant solution.

Why compare the kits on their individual parts, why not compare what you get out of it, isn't that what most people care about, ie value for money ?

How about wording that $2,000 reflash of stock ECU, as two years reverse engineering the stock ecu's, plus hardware and software to develop tools and systems to enable that reflash, or you could go with the its just 1's and 0's they're cheap right, how much work could that be !

Let me ask you a simpler question, what do you want to prove from all of this , ie whats your goal ?

[vortrex]

I want to upgrade to an S at some point, so I'm looking at value for the money. I think it is perfectly normal for consumers to compare items before purchase.

you are right about the install, forgot about that. I would imagine the install labor is not too much with the kit since there's not much to it. I would also imagine many somewhat capable people could do this at home or have people other than FF do the mechanical install. I fully agree with you that the smaller and cleaner setup is always better, but that's if the numbers are the same. at 265HP are somewhat tapped out on what the ECU can do with stock hardware? I guess it comes down to this.. if S111 offers a gotham 291HP kit (pulley, injectors, belt, reflash) will the price only be say $2700 ($2000 flash + misc small hardware bits)? if so, that would be a killer deal.