TRUTH/MYTH OF LOTUS ECU

[Chili Red]

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

I understand all of that. But if an intake makes and maintains power in a PART of the RPM range...like lets say the top end...doesn't that DEBUNK the notion of intakes losing power through the WHOLE rpm band...and make the "power loss" statement here only applicable to the low-midrange?

If such top end oriented intake mods are useless, go tell that to all the 180-190+ whp NA GTS's who tune out the low-midrange loses, who have the best top ends out there, and who probably only need cams hit 200+ whp NA.

I'm still waiting for a dyno that shows an intake's power loss through the WHOLE rpm band over time, and not just the low-midrange.

I know low-midrange hp/torque is more valuable than gold here, but such losses can be tuned out with an engine management system if a top end oriented mod takes away from it, especially for our high revving engine. LIFT is where the power's at.

Go back and read Charlies long post and it will answer all your questions.

[Murix]

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

I understand all of that. But if an intake makes and maintains power in a PART of the RPM range...like lets say the top end...doesn't that DEBUNK the notion of intakes losing power through the WHOLE rpm band...and make the "power loss" statement here only applicable to the low-midrange?

If such top end oriented intake mods are useless, go tell that to all the 180-190+ whp NA GTS's who tune out the low-midrange loses, who have the best top ends out there, and who probably only need cams hit 200+ whp NA.

I'm still waiting for a dyno that shows an intake's power loss through the WHOLE rpm band over time, and not just the low-midrange.

I know low-midrange hp/torque is more valuable than gold here, but such losses can be tuned out with an engine management system if a top end oriented mod takes away from it, especially for our high revving engine. LIFT is where the power's at.

Once you have all this information, what exactly are you going to do with it?

[cory1000]

waa waaa, my celica does this....waaa waaa, my celica does that....waaa waaa, im a cry baby...

why dont you show a dyno that shoes power gains on your LOTUS....oh wait, you wont own one for another 5 years...

[andrewgotanelise]

internet bruatality = good times

[GTsRasta]

Murix, my goal here is to debunk the what's "truth" and "myth" here. Hence, the title of the thread.

It makes no sense as to why one company's breather mod won't get any criticism towards making power, and another one's will if they're both properly engineered to make gains, whether they be low-midrange or top end oriented.

Originally Posted by Chili Red

Go back and read Charlies long post and it will answer all your questions.

I did, and I'm starting to get familiar with all of the terminology he uses, and what they mean. If there are too many variables to consider, wouldn't the Fujita intake that Sector111 sell NOT have the same gains in the same powerband advertised then? If that's the case, what's the point of posting up the dyno on the site to advertise the gains? One must assume that they'll get similar gains by buying this $240 intake...right? Look again at the LOTUS Fujita intake dyno graph:



As you guys can see, there's hp/tq LOST in the mid-low, and hp/tq GAINED when it gets closer to the top end, just like the exige motorwerks dyno graph comparisons. As far as I can tell, there's hp/tq lost in the first half of rpm usage, and hp/tq gained in the later half of rpm usage towards redline.

Now if the "truth" about intakes here is that it loses power, when am I going to see a dyno that shows power loss throughout the WHOLE rpm range to substantiate that claim?

[insane]

Originally Posted by charliex

....its hard to create something and see it gathering dust on the table.

Now, that-there's a real heartbreaker....

[Scott]

GTS... I appreciate what you are doing. It's good you don't let the cry baby crap bother you. That speaks for itself. For a young guy such as yourself you seem to be pretty darn knowledgeable about the 2ZZge. You obviously have a passion for getting the most out of them. I like your posts... I like what you have to say and hell I've learned a thing or two from you. Keep up the good work.

[vortrex]

Originally Posted by Scott

GTS... I appreciate what you are doing. It's good you don't let the cry baby crap bother you. That speaks for itself. For a young guy such as yourself you seem to be pretty darn knowledgeable about the 2ZZge. You obviously have a passion for getting the most out of them. I like your posts... I like what you have to say and hell I've learned a thing or two from you. Keep up the good work.

it's good to see GTsRasta's dad posting on the forum!

[charliex]

Search the forum for the posts talking about resetting the ecu between dyno runs with a CAI, they'll show you the power drop, thats the easiest way to test it. I recall someone posting dynos, but it was a few years ago.

If the CAI affects the MAF sensor -/+, the AF mix is no longer where the tuner set it to be, if it was optimum, it can no longer be so. It doesn't seem like a hard concept to grasp.

[cory1000]

Originally Posted by vortrex

it's good to see GTsRasta's dad posting on the forum!

[GTsRasta]

Originally Posted by charliex

Search the forum for the posts talking about resetting the ecu between dyno runs with a CAI, they'll show you the power drop, thats the easiest way to test it. I recall someone posting dynos, but it was a few years ago.

If the CAI affects the MAF sensor -/+, the AF mix is no longer where the tuner set it to be, if it was optimum, it can no longer be so. It doesn't seem like a hard concept to grasp.

You're right, resetting the ECU like that is the easiest way to get to the end result...

I'll take your word for it, and look around for such a dyno graph. Thanks again for taking time out of your day and explaining things out.

[GTsRasta]

Ok, I found this very informative thread that I'm going to read into more detail the next chance I get:

CAI effects tested by PES

Darksol DOES have a dyno with a 3 whp top end gain with his intake on post #15...but the rest of the thread goes into more detail about the circumstances to CAI gains...and I didn't come up with a dyno that has losses through the whole rpm range in my search...

But based on that thread...if the intakes on the market create lean conditions that eventually get cancelled out...when is somebody going to develop a Lotus intake with a 2.5" diameter like the stock Lotus intake and the Celica intakes to prevent the lean conditions? Are all aftermarket Lotus intakes more than 2.5"???

Although I'm running my new Gen 2 AEM CAI just fine, and was even fine with my previous Gen 1 AEM CAI with a different MAF housing location on the intake...you guys might want to check out this infamous "Blue Bomber" mod and encorporate it into developing a new intake...which basically makes Celica owners hack up their stock airbox and connect it to the CAI for a proper 2.5" inlet to the throttle body like stock...

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127862

Originally Posted by Blue Bomber

If your car is having bogging and hesitation problems and you have an aftermarket intake (cold air or short ram), this is the answer you've been looking for!

Reason For Bogging/Hesitation
Aftermarket intakes use larger piping (usually 2.75" vs stock 2.5"). This is supposed to allow more airflow, but unfortunately, our mass airflow sensor (MAFS) is tuned to read air through a 2.5" pipe. Increasing the size of the pipe actually slows down the air speed, since our engines can only take in so much air. The lower air speed makes the MAFS think less air is coming into the engine. This results in the engine getting less gas than needed, making it run lean. This will cause the engine to bog at low RPMs, hesitate during normal driving RPMs, and reduce overall engine power output. It can even lead to check engine lights (CELs), with the code of P0171.
Reason Why This Modification Works
This modification replaces the aftermarket intake's MAFS mount with the stock mount. The piping inside the stock mount is 2.5", so it allows the MAFS to read the incoming air correctly and provide the engine with the proper amount of fuel. It combines the best characteristics of the stock airbox (proper airflow speed) and the aftermarket intake (low restriction airflow) to provide maximum power gain.

Will My Intake Work With This Modification?
Yes. This modification has been tested sucessfully on the AEM Gen 1 CAI/eBay CAI, the Injen short ram, and the RMM short ram. It will also work with the Injen CAI/APC Intimidator CAI, K&N CAI and short ram, and PHR CAI. As long as the intake's pipe has a constant diameter, this mod will work. The exception may be the Iceman intake, since its diameter continually changes over the length of the intake.



INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS (shown on eBay CAI)

Parts Required

Stock airbox
Aftermarket intake
Flathead and Philips screwdrivers
Power saw or Dremel
Pipe cutter (optional)
File (optional)
Pliers
Epoxy
Power sander
80 grit sandpaper
600 grit wetsanding sandpaper
Spray paint
Knife or strong scissors
45 degree silicone coupler (optional)
Straight silicone coupler (optional)

Hey look...Celica AND Lotus vehicles are throwing the same code with intake mods...INSAAANE...right?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I'll continue my search for a entire rpm loss dyno by an intake tomarrow...

[chuck_risen]

I vote for Charlie getting to do his own Mythbusters show on an Elise or Exige and prove/disprove a bunch of the "upgrades" out there. Chili Red was joking but may be on to something.

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by charliex

I thought i had answered Dragons questions in the past too, but i do like the old gambit of saying I'm basically bleeding people dry so that he thinks it'll make me answer questions or give up what he needs, its an oldie but goodie, its not really one thats necessary i believe, i try to answer what people ask if i can add to it, but elisetalk is somewhere i visit from time to time there are a lot of threads and posts to wade through, plus people tend to just ask again and demand answers with these little barbed comments and undertones, rather than search for answers that've already been posted or just ask a simple question without the hostility or social/economic commentary, and unfortunately i can't commit to this fulltime since its just not a viable business model.

I don't recall ever actually getting an answer from you, but maybe I missed a response in anouther post. Your software evidently works as its being used and I just want to know when it will be fore sale as it would solve my problem. I live on an island separated by 1,000 miles of water from Japan and on the other side of the planet from Sector 111. It is not feasible for me to ROM tune or send my ECU out for weeks at a time. I also wouldn't trust a tune that wasn't done on my car with the parts I've installed. Every engine doesn't run the same, I'm at sea level and we have high humidity etc. I also plan on running a variety of other parts on the car and upgrade as I go. For this reason I need a ECU solution that will allow me to tune myself and you have exactly what I need. To somebody in my situation that sees that your software works, is being used by sector111 to tune, but isn't being sold (after it has been posted it would be for sale) it would appear that it is for economic gain. Sorry if this offended you, but it usually is what it appears to be.

Originally Posted by charliex

To answer the question about the tunable software here which is the underlying agenda for some, its a simple answer, I'm concerned that if someone kills their engine using my software, they'll sue me, everyone who wants it will try to persuade me that its not a concern, but that'd be poor advice for me to take, and i won't, i have lawyers that deal with all that junk. Not the best answer, especially for me as i spent a lot of time developing the damn thing in the first place.

Now this actually explains something. I've blown many engines and built even more playing around with aftermarket ecu's and other toys. My loss of $, but my gain in knowledge. Why don't you just have your lawyer draw up a letter stating that you are at no fault should the user blow their engine or die in a car crash etc. Then we can sign it before purchasing the software? Then you'll be able to benefit from selling your software with no harm to you and you will see the rewards as higher hp Lotus's start tearing up tracks.

No disrespect to you in any way. Infact I comend you for creating this software, but perception of what is going on can sometimes be different than reality of what is going on, but often it is exactly what's going on. I just want to build my car and the ECU is standing in my way.

PS. would like to toss the stupid MAF and replace with a MAP sensor as well...

[Scott]

Originally Posted by vortrex

it's good to see GTsRasta's dad posting on the forum!

FU. But that was funny.

[scottyb]

Maybe we should have Randy create a Junior members category or Post the ages of the individuals making posts?

[cory1000]

it will be like the kids table at Thanksgiving?

[xtn]

charliex -

I too would be willing to sign such a release in order to get the whole shebang. Well, at least next year when I'm actually ready to start modding the engine.

But... and this is for Dragon's consideration... people sign releases all the time and still sue.

xtn

[MaineLotus]

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

I got in the drivers seat for a minute while the car was off, and I definetally would like a Spyder over a Lotus now. The pedals are too cramped together. My Timberland boots were hitting the brake pedal as I stepped on the gas, so that would be bad if moving. Plus compared to my TWM short shifter, the shifts of his longer stock lever took forever. I have a better chance of staying in LIFT than him, and I'm back to stock. All in all, it was a awesome car...but the cost of body damage, the price of the vehicle, and the small room is going to deter me away. Getting in and out of the car was a cool experience, but it sucked having big boots on . I can only imagine how much more friendler and roomier a Spyder is.

GTsRasta - According to a post on newcelica, you're not getting a Lotus, why do you spend so much effort on useless posts here? I hope people don't read your posts as good information - most are not based on any first hand experience or fact, heck, you don't even own a Lotus. And your Celica, it has a CAI and short shift kit, nothing that can be shared with our cars. What's your motive here? Seems very odd to me.

[PhlypSide]

charlie is t3h local guru on our ECU's, anything he says > anything Rasta says.

I don't know what Rasta's point is either. Then again I haven't really cared about Celicas since they axed RWD and AWD versions... now they've just axed Celicas altogether.