TRUTH/MYTH OF LOTUS ECU

[snuggles1]

Originally Posted by jlj3394

I think his analysis is interesting, although I don't really know/care who is right. But the guy shouldn't be bashed for offering an opinion, when in reality he is trying to help us all by figuring out if more power can be bolted onto this engine.

I personally enjoy many of his posts.

Know will someone tell me whether I get more or less power when the air temp here is 5 degrees and probably 20 below wind chill?

I enjoy them too. Keep it up rasta...

[scottyb]

I'm a little confused, can anyone tell me why people are putting rear wings on front wheel drive cars like Celicas & Civics? You would think that it would take traction away from the front tires. Is there any advantage or is it just Bling?

Maybe GTRastaBaby can chime in since he is experienced with the Celica.

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by snuggles1

I enjoy them too. Keep it up rasta...

Ditto, since we have the same drive line and celica parts that may work on our cars are much cheper than the lotus specific ones I'm all for his posts. Bring all the info you want, keeps me from having to search as much to find what I'm looking for since rasta hyperlinks everything.

I really don't get why all these guys hate him because he doesn't own a lotus. Seems a bit biggoted to me...

[Dragon]

delete

[MikeW]

Originally Posted by Dragon

Ditto, since we have the same drive line and celica parts that may work on our cars are much cheper than the lotus specific ones I'm all for his posts. Bring all the info you want, keeps me from having to search as much to find what I'm looking for since rasta hyperlinks everything.

I really don't get why all these guys hate him because he doesn't own a lotus. Seems a bit biggoted to me...

We have a couple of members who post here from time to time who don't own a Lotus. I won't drag their names into this. They have actual knowledge based on things they have done. People are welcomed who keep information factual and don't post the latest internet gibberish they read in advertisements and proclaim it as fact. It doesn't help your popularity to get on a site, act like you know everything, when the fact is that it's obvious you're in the learning stage.

[snuggles1]

Originally Posted by MikeW

We have a couple of members who post here from time to time who don't own a Lotus. I won't drag their names into this. They have actual knowledge based on things they have done. People are welcomed who keep information factual and don't post the latest internet gibberish they read in advertisements and proclaim it as fact. It doesn't help your popularity to get on a site, act like you know everything, when the fact is that it's obvious you're in the learning stage.

mike, good points, and while i normally sidestep these kind of conversations, i would like to add that 1) there is no requirement to own a Lotus, (or even a sportscar!) here - we are all friendly with people here who USED TO or MAY own one; 2) I think all of us are in the learning stage here on one topic or another. If not, I'd like to meet the person who can click on every thread here and not learn a thing.

Peace out.

[GTsRasta]

Thanks for the kind words guys. The reality is that I'm just a jester here asking questions that fancied my curiosity. The real leaders are the ones with first hand experience that know more than me. Sometimes I waste your time by showing you stupid Celica parts, other times it could surge interest for nice products (Hydra, PPE race header, etc). I hope to do something about the experience part once I rape my friend's supercharged car for all his parts ...but until he's ready to get the BMW he wants...all I can do is pick up a "How to tune and modify engine management systems" book by Jeff Hartman...figure out the power goals/limits of my engine...and make sure I don't hit the pitfalls others have.

Originally Posted by MaineLotus

GTsRasta - According to a post on newcelica, you're not getting a Lotus, why do you spend so much effort on useless posts here? I hope people don't read your posts as good information - most are not based on any first hand experience or fact, heck, you don't even own a Lotus. And your Celica, it has a CAI and short shift kit, nothing that can be shared with our cars. What's your motive here? Seems very odd to me.

I keep changing my mind . Until I saw lots of Lotus wrecks, I was totally for getting a Lotus on the forums. Sometimes the crash pictures scare the shyt out of me, other times I keep falling back in love with the sleek lines of the Lotus over the fugly MR2-Spyder. Right now...I'm back in love with how sleek a Lotus looks. Only time will tell which car I'll pick when the time comes. If you think this was bad, you should've seen the indecisive thread I made about whether to do a NA, Turbo, or Supercharger build. At first I was planning on going turbo with my car...

As for my motive, it's within the first sentence of the first post. I wanted to flesh out why some vendors get praised for offering breather mods, and others get bashed with the "learning" nonesense.

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

charlie is t3h local guru on our ECU's, anything he says > anything Rasta says.

And I agree with you 100%. I'm in the learning stages of ECU's, PROMs, chips, reflashes, fuel tables, etc. Charlie has already taken those b@stard ECU's apart, and made them his biatch with his tuning software. But at the end of the day...taking people's word for "breather mods will not make power on a Lotus" led to a lot of misconceptions here that I was really curious to flesh out. All that's left is this intake arguement, and I'm already starting to concede to Charlie's first hand explanations. I just need to find a dyno graph with near 100% power loss in all RPMs to shut me up for good...

[Scott]

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

I just need to find a dyno graph with near 100% power loss in all RPMs to shut me up for good...

[andrewgotanelise]

Originally Posted by Scott

I want to see someone get owned like that really bad but i could have made that in MS paint in 2 mins

[Scott]

It took me 3.

[cory1000]

How come you dont talk all "getto" on here like you do on your fly-ass myspace page:

"Movies, tv, mall, poker, workin out, videogames, hangin out wit da very few sets of crews dat I have, relaxin, paintballin, & seein bout goin into medicine. My head's alwayz in da books since i stay home & babysitt my sis & cuz everyday...so I mite as well bea doc juss lyk my momz"


I really like the "so I mite as well bea doc juss lyk my momz"....yeah, thats a great start to being a Doctor. I can just imagine you walking into a room to see someone and saying "yo, yous haven sum issues?"

How can you expect anyone to talk you seriously on here when you dont have a clue what you are talking about..and yes, you know NOTHING compared to charlie, so why dont you shut up and to the man...

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

Thanks for the kind words guys. The reality is that I'm just a jester here asking questions that fancied my curiosity. The real leaders are the ones with first hand experience that know more than me. Sometimes I waste your time by showing you stupid Celica parts, other times it could surge interest for nice products (Hydra, PPE race header, etc). I hope to do something about the experience part once I rape my friend's supercharged car for all his parts ...but until he's ready to get the BMW he wants...all I can do is pick up a "How to tune and modify engine management systems" book by Jeff Hartman...figure out the power goals/limits of my engine...and make sure I don't hit the pitfalls others have.




And I agree with you 100%. I'm in the learning stages of ECU's, PROMs, chips, reflashes, fuel tables, etc. Charlie has already taken those b@stard ECU's apart, and made them his biatch with his tuning software. But at the end of the day...taking people's word for "breather mods will not make power on a Lotus" led to a lot of misconceptions here that I was really curious to flesh out. All that's left is this intake arguement, and I'm already starting to concede to Charlie's first hand explanations. I just need to find a dyno graph with near 100% power loss in all RPMs to shut me up for good...

[GTsRasta]

??? I wrote that when I was 16, and continue to leave it on there because I'm still a young person. God forbid I endulge myself in slang outside of academia to fit in with people my age... .

Is this the type of stuff you do when people disprove you, and get you to stop bashing other vendor's race header group buys? Between the two of us, I don't think I'm the one acting like a kid...

BTW: I get A's in English and writing.

[VBCARGUY]

i would love to see the myspace page

[cory1000]

http://www.myspace.com/gtjamaican

There you go

Originally Posted by VBCARGUY

i would love to see the myspace page

[cory1000]

its just sad that you have to use slang like that to "fit in"

oh, I must of missed where you disproved me... I dont recall bashing a group buy, I recall discussing it and asking for proof that it works better then stock...

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

??? I wrote that when I was 16, and continue to leave it on there because I'm still a young person. God forbid I endulge myself in slang outside of academia to fit in with people my age... .

Is this the type of stuff you do when people disprove you, and get you to stop bashing other vendor's race header group buys? Between the two of us, I don't think I'm the one acting like a kid...

BTW: I get A's in English and writing.

[GTsRasta]

It's "sad" that I use slang, huh? It's not like I'm a minority with family all over NYC, and who's totally immersed in a culture where slang is the norm...

Oh well. I like your mature discussions BTW:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50526

Originally Posted by cory1000

how can you possible have "noticeable power gains" without modded ecu?

Originally Posted by cory1000

this is just another "ricer tuner" (one of the million out there) that didn't do his homework, just wants to make a buck and doesn't want to put in the time to research or doesnt care that he may be hurting performance not helping...

no, im not against civics and integras at all...but come on already...

Originally Posted by cory1000

Where is Charlie to chime in when you need him??

EDIT---what he said above..

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

"Noticable power gains" can be seen and proven in dynos, and written testimonials. Randy Chase said himself that it's possible for header gains to stay, regardless if it's low-midrange or top end oriented on the stock ECU:

TRUTH/MYTH OF LOTUS ECU

So now you have no reason to bash this innocent vendor any longer.

Originally Posted by cory1000

your posts about all this Celica crap is annoying...what your point?

Stop trying to cram crap down peoples throat...

Originally Posted by cory1000

AGAIN....you want proof either way....GET A LOTUS AND TEST IT before you try and sell products that you have not tested on the cars you are trying to sell them for....

Your ignorance to Randy Chases own words saying that it IS possible for a header to make gains on a stock Lotus ECU, along with your ignorance to dustylax playing a role in the PL Racing supercharger kit here in the U.S. just makes you what I called you...a vendor basher.

Now that you fulfilled your need to show my personal information to the forum, I'd like to get back on topic, and search for that mystical dyno.

[GTsRasta]

OK, I finally found a thread with a dyno with decent power loss...sorta (Page 15, Post #298):

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18565

Originally Posted by roadrunner

But it isn't what anyone would be expecting... Power is DOWN according to the dyno results!...

Before I go any further, I'd like to point out that this isn't a slam on the product, I'm simply reporting objective technical information. I have been very impressed with Nathan's handling of the ordering and delivery of the product, communication has been excellent, the product itself is of high quality and dresses up the engine bay quite a bit. I have to agree with the other posters - the sound of this intake is simply intoxicating, and subjectively, throttle response seems slightly better. Also, no CEL so far...

On Friday morning I warmed the car up and went for a baseline dyno pull. The first two images below (Power:Torque and Power:Air Fuel Ratio) resulted from that first visit. Immediately after that I had the intake installed by my local dealer. I provided them with Michael's excellent instructions, which I believe they followed closely. After installation I let the car idle for 15 minutes before driving away as recommended in previous posts. I drove the car around for about 30 miles at a variety of speeds and rev ranges before returning for the "after" dyno run. The second pair of images are from that visit.

In summary, we're looking at a 5-10 HP DROP across the entire first cam, and a bit of a flat spot at about 7200 RPM. One interesting aspect is the BIG difference in AFR on the first cam after the CAI was fitted.

Open to any suggestions or observations from the technically knowledgable out there. What could have gone wrong in the installation process or afterwards to get this kind of result? Perhaps my mistakes will serve as a warning to others undertaking the procedure?

I'm sure there's a straightforward explanation - anyone, anyone?

The low-midrange losses don't look that much different than other top end oriented intakes that take away from the low-mid, but does that dyno show gains or loss in the top end? Peak hp looks like it remains the same. I can't tell...but darksol reported the same power drop at around 7,000 rpm AND exclaimed that he still had power gain up top on the same turboxs intake:

CAI effects tested by PES

Originally Posted by darkSol

I beg to differ. There was a substantial bump in power from the 2nd cam engagement point to 7000rpm; a slight dip to 7500 and then a solid gain until redline as shown below:

So as of right now...I still only see low-midrange power being loss with top end power being gained. Where are the dynos with a loss in top end...where the 2nd cam opens up and more VE becomes valuable for more power? Here's another thread with the TurboXS intake...talking about the 5-10 whp loss...and some comments:

5-10 HP Drop with TurboXS CAI???

Originally Posted by 2kvette

I have been trying to decide on a CAI to go along with the Stage II exhaust. Reading through the thread..."Custom TurboXS Intake Gains", it seems that according to roadrunner's post on 3-19-06, his dyno with the TurboXS produced a 5-10 HP drop!!! The funny thing is that he raised the question but it seems that no one is really interested (or cares) in the power loss, only the great sound the intake produces!!?? Even the manufacturer of the product never challenged roadrunner's dyno. Can anyone provide me with any input or insight as to whether the dyno results could be wrong or that this CAI really causes a loss in power. Thanks!

This intake thread goes on with a nice discussion between Charlie and Boosted2.0, the Toyota guru who is putting together Sleepless's 250 whp NA Lotus build. Long story short, Boosted2.0 can't believe that the Lotus ECU doesn't act like other ECU's with intakes for more power, says that there might be room for Lotus intake design improvements, and charlie argues that the Lotus ECU really is that special to lose all gains. But then comes another darksol dyno...

5-10 HP Drop with TurboXS CAI???

Originally Posted by darkSol

Here's my long anticipated dyno...

Keep in mind that today was 92 degrees (1.03 correction factor) vs. 72 last October (0.99 correction) - but unless I waited for a nice cool fall day you wouldn't have these results...

Also, I'm displaying STD correction, smoothing level 5 since all the folks here seem to be doing that. Dyno "driver" stopped prematurely on runs 5/6 (I have run #4 that goes straight to 8500rpm, but it was my first run - and it's lower).

Results:
Starting at 3000 rpm both dynos are on par.
Around 3600 rpm the TurboXS loses against stock, but catches up at 4300 rpm.
At 4500 rpm it starts to sag again, but catches up again at 5100 rpm.
From 5100 rpm to 6900 rpm there are solid midrange gains which end up matching stock.
Most worrysome is the 7000 rpm to 7500 drop.
Best gains run from 7600 rpm to redline.

So it looks like the intake plays the give and take game against stock. Quarter mile runs would probably be a tad quicker... but that dang 7000-7500 rpm drop...

I still ADORE the sound though... I drove high-cam full bore through a handful of tunnels on the way home...

Anyway... Comments?

His car still maintains a 7,000+ rpm drop in power right before picking up gains again. And here's raygr's posts and dynos further supporting that he KEPT AND MAINTAINED gains with an intake:

5-10 HP Drop with TurboXS CAI???
5-10 HP Drop with TurboXS CAI???

It's a shame the thread ended with Boosted2.0 making the last post, no conclusion made, AND NO DYNO HAVING POWER LOST THROUGH THE WHOLE ENTIRE RPM BAND . So far, the worst case scenario I've seen is power being matched in the top end and peak. Where the hell are these mystery dynos showing top end power loss?!?!?!?

[Chris Mackey]

GTsRasta...you're cool with me...stick around.

[Beanie]

Too many unpopped kernels here, not enough butter.

[scottyb]

Originally Posted by Beanie

Too many unpopped kernels here, not enough butter.

I hate when that happens because your bound to bit down on one and then you crack a tooth.