Why do newer ECUs need to be physically opened? - LotusTalk

brokenboy · 09-29-2009, 11:37 PM

Does anyone know why the T4E ('06+, DBW) ECU's need to be opened to be programmed? The T4's (05) don't.

I've been looking at the way a bunch of other ECU's have been cracked, and they all begin with figuring out how to program from the pins. Via a variety of methods, the companies or individuals figure out what protocols, challenge/responses, etc that the ECU needs. The Subaru, Mitsu, Nissan and Mazda ECU's are all easily reprogrammed and even read out.

Clearly the dealer can reprogram from the OBDII connector, so it's possible. I'd think that once the code was fully disassembled and understood, it would be easy to reprogram without opening the ECU.

Just kinda wondering what is so unique about the newer Lotus ECUs.

Tang0_au · 09-30-2009, 12:08 AM

VERY different hardware inside the box of non dbw and dbw ecu's

non dbw is an EFI Euro 1 ?
dbw is an EFI euro 4.

however, they are not the same as off the shelf available EURO 4 ecu's from EFI.

brokenboy · 09-30-2009, 12:13 AM

Yes, but both can be programmed by the dealer through the OBDII port and both have had their code fully dissambled and the protection cracked (when it is even there).

So why can the '05's and most other ECU's out there be modded just via the OBDII port and the '06+ need to be opened by everyone that modifies them?

Mr. Oz · 09-30-2009, 07:13 AM

My 08 was modded via the OBD port...no problem

brokenboy · 09-30-2009, 08:03 AM

Weird. Everyone I know of (admittedly limited to Charlie and PES) has to open up an 06+ ECU to update it, and it's been said the '08s are the same ECU just different software, and a different wiring harness on the car side (mostly for the new dash).

mrcarcrazy · 09-30-2009, 02:03 PM

I'm just curious but why does it matter if it has to be opened up?

If you want a response, you should just PM charlie. he'll tell you why he opens them up.

brokenboy · 10-01-2009, 07:47 AM

I'm just a naturally curious engineer, and I always wonder about stuff like that. Why is X different than Y when from afar they seem the same? There's always a good non-obvious reason and learning about stuff like that is fun.

I've been looking at getting a WRX and they have all this open source tuning stuff and have their ECU's fully cracked (as well as Mitsu, Mazda, and Nissan ECUs). The very first thing they started with was the simple ability to just read and write arbitrary code to the ECU. I'm truly, honestly curious why this method works fine for the 05's but not for the 06's, when, as far as I know, the same lotus scan tool can write any of them.

I'm assuming if Charlie doesn't respond it's because he considers it proprietary, which is fine, so I was wondering if anyone else knew.

turbophil · 10-01-2009, 08:23 AM

I'll probably regret this post, but what the heck and take all this with a truck load of salt... I THINK opening ECUs is old news for CX. Back in the day, chips were replaced in both ECUs from what I gather. It was a bigger deal on the 06+ cars, as the ECU isn't screwed together. The back is glued on with that ECU, where the 05 is screwed together... Anyhow, as knowledge progressed, opening ECUs went away and there was a time that I think CX was doing the flashing via obdII (as per Mr. Oz's post). Then Lotus got wse to his ability to do so and blocked programming access via the OBDII port, so now he flashes via canbus direct to ECU, but still doesn't have to take either ECU apart to do the work (just remove from the car)... To my knowledge (which is limited on the OEM ECUs), PES still does have to take both ECUs apart for their work...

Sorry for the crude explaination. I'm not an EE and I'm just piecing together bits and pieces over the years...

All this is on the forum someplace and probably much more accurately outlined someplace on here....

Best,

Phil

Edited post...

da1duc · 10-07-2009, 06:41 AM

It is much easier to modify an ECU (or any device) that has external memory, just remove the memory and re-flash it (or replace it in the case of PROM). That is why people still do it that way.

Now it is a LOT quicker just to flash it still in the vehicle, or in the ecu. That requires having the capability to reverse the programming algorithm and write code to flash the ecu (or use a tool that someone has done that work for you).

Hope this helps.

D

09-29-2009, 11:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
brokenboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 126	Why do newer ECUs need to be physically opened? Does anyone know why the T4E ('06+, DBW) ECU's need to be opened to be programmed? The T4's (05) don't. I've been looking at the way a bunch of other ECU's have been cracked, and they all begin with figuring out how to program from the pins. Via a variety of methods, the companies or individuals figure out what protocols, challenge/responses, etc that the ECU needs. The Subaru, Mitsu, Nissan and Mazda ECU's are all easily reprogrammed and even read out. Clearly the dealer can reprogram from the OBDII connector, so it's possible. I'd think that once the code was fully disassembled and understood, it would be easy to reprogram without opening the ECU. Just kinda wondering what is so unique about the newer Lotus ECUs. __________________ 2007 Ardent Red Elise, track pack, BWR SC 2004 RX-8, 350z muncher 2004 BMW 325i, kiddie hauler

09-30-2009, 12:08 AM	#2 (permalink)
Tang0_au w00t Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 130	VERY different hardware inside the box of non dbw and dbw ecu's non dbw is an EFI Euro 1 ? dbw is an EFI euro 4. however, they are not the same as off the shelf available EURO 4 ecu's from EFI. __________________ 1zz Elise Blown by Rotrex: Build Thread: http://www.aussieelises.com/forums/i...showtopic=9609

09-30-2009, 12:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
brokenboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 126	Yes, but both can be programmed by the dealer through the OBDII port and both have had their code fully dissambled and the protection cracked (when it is even there). So why can the '05's and most other ECU's out there be modded just via the OBDII port and the '06+ need to be opened by everyone that modifies them? __________________ 2007 Ardent Red Elise, track pack, BWR SC 2004 RX-8, 350z muncher 2004 BMW 325i, kiddie hauler

09-30-2009, 07:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
Mr. Oz never enough power! Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 243	My 08 was modded via the OBD port...no problem __________________ Dan 08 2-Eleven Launch Edition

09-30-2009, 08:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
brokenboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 126	Weird. Everyone I know of (admittedly limited to Charlie and PES) has to open up an 06+ ECU to update it, and it's been said the '08s are the same ECU just different software, and a different wiring harness on the car side (mostly for the new dash). __________________ 2007 Ardent Red Elise, track pack, BWR SC 2004 RX-8, 350z muncher 2004 BMW 325i, kiddie hauler

09-30-2009, 02:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
mrcarcrazy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 690	I'm just curious but why does it matter if it has to be opened up? If you want a response, you should just PM charlie. he'll tell you why he opens them up. __________________ 2005 Magnetic Blue Elise - "the Lotus" (original I know) 2001 Jeep Wrangler - "soul crusher". If you dont GET it after you drive it, then you dont GET it - serpent

10-01-2009, 07:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
brokenboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 126	I'm just a naturally curious engineer, and I always wonder about stuff like that. Why is X different than Y when from afar they seem the same? There's always a good non-obvious reason and learning about stuff like that is fun. I've been looking at getting a WRX and they have all this open source tuning stuff and have their ECU's fully cracked (as well as Mitsu, Mazda, and Nissan ECUs). The very first thing they started with was the simple ability to just read and write arbitrary code to the ECU. I'm truly, honestly curious why this method works fine for the 05's but not for the 06's, when, as far as I know, the same lotus scan tool can write any of them. I'm assuming if Charlie doesn't respond it's because he considers it proprietary, which is fine, so I was wondering if anyone else knew. __________________ 2007 Ardent Red Elise, track pack, BWR SC 2004 RX-8, 350z muncher 2004 BMW 325i, kiddie hauler

10-01-2009, 08:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
turbophil Plug Whisperer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kansas City/ Overland Park Posts: 2,544 Images: 6	I'll probably regret this post, but what the heck and take all this with a truck load of salt... I THINK opening ECUs is old news for CX. Back in the day, chips were replaced in both ECUs from what I gather. It was a bigger deal on the 06+ cars, as the ECU isn't screwed together. The back is glued on with that ECU, where the 05 is screwed together... Anyhow, as knowledge progressed, opening ECUs went away and there was a time that I think CX was doing the flashing via obdII (as per Mr. Oz's post). Then Lotus got wse to his ability to do so and blocked programming access via the OBDII port, so now he flashes via canbus direct to ECU, but still doesn't have to take either ECU apart to do the work (just remove from the car)... To my knowledge (which is limited on the OEM ECUs), PES still does have to take both ECUs apart for their work... Sorry for the crude explaination. I'm not an EE and I'm just piecing together bits and pieces over the years... All this is on the forum someplace and probably much more accurately outlined someplace on here.... Best, Phil Edited post... __________________ \| '05 GG LSS Elise \| A Track Chariot \| BOE ClamHinge \| BOE TVS SuperCharger 280whp/180wtq \| EFI Standalone Engine Management \| BOE Fuel Surge System \| BOE Lotus Tow Package See my car at BOE Fabrication: www.boefabrication.com *----->Last Updated: 9/25/2009* If something ain't worth doing right, it ain't worth doing... *Whoever thought working on a Lotus is hard, clearly hasn't tried it. Pick up a wrench and get some grease under your nails* Last edited by turbophil : 10-01-2009 at 08:29 AM.

10-07-2009, 06:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
da1duc Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 15	It is much easier to modify an ECU (or any device) that has external memory, just remove the memory and re-flash it (or replace it in the case of PROM). That is why people still do it that way. Now it is a LOT quicker just to flash it still in the vehicle, or in the ecu. That requires having the capability to reverse the programming algorithm and write code to flash the ecu (or use a tool that someone has done that work for you). Hope this helps. D

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