EVise/EVige poll

[smicker]

Originally Posted by e jet

Yes, I know that that's Tesla's assertion. I can't say more than that in a public forum. The lawyers are already on the march! (Tesla vs. Fisker, Magna vs. Tesla: Tesla Roadster Law Suits vs. Fisker, Magna - Legal Analysis - Engadget - Popular Mechanics)

Oh, and I know that the Tesla's motor is air-cooled. I was referring to their liquid-cooled battery pack.

You first claimed that we're licensing the drivetrain. Now you're saying that we stole it? What's exactly is your claim here?

And the battery pack isn't water cooled either, it's propylene glycol.

[Patricko]

I don't know why anyone would spend $90k on a car that may or may not be all that its creator hoped it would be when they could spend a fraction more and have a properly engineered car that will have a resale value.

Good luck

[e jet]

Originally Posted by smicker

You first claimed that we're licensing the drivetrain. Now you're saying that we stole it? What's exactly is your claim here?

And the battery pack isn't water cooled either, it's propylene glycol.

If you work for Tesla, please exhibit some professionalism and take it offline.
If you don't work for Tesla, please just go away. You're hijacking my thread.

Everyone else, please just comment on the poll. I really don't care what Tesla is or is not doing. This is not a Tesla thread. Thanks!

[e jet]

Originally Posted by mopho

Tzero is not built on the Elise platform like you are talking about, the Tesla is, so what you are proposing will provide similar noise issues to what I experienced in the Tesla. It was not terrible, nor loud, but it certainly was not exciting. The sound of an engine ads to the experience, makes the car feel faster.

I have been in other electric cars too, even one that does 11 sec 1/4 miles


I imagine the novelty of an electric sports car with no gears would wear off pretty quick for the kind of hardcore enthusiasts that would buy an spartan sports car like the Elise, I think most would agree that the noise is part of the package (hence why many Elise owners put aftermarket exhaust systems on the car).
And that is precisely why Tesla decided to make their car a bit more plush, to appeal to a broader audience (that and they listened to their customers who suggested they did not want a car as spartan as the elise).

Like I said, I welcome the idea of an electric runabout, but it would have to be a little bit more practical/comfortable. When it comes to my fun car, I love hearing the engine winding out, cracking off shifts and the sounds echoing off the mountain walls


Well you asked for opinions, and I gave mine

No, thanks for the opinion, this is good. You're right, any EV based on the Elise/Exige would have annoying noise issues. And wouldn't have the fun shifting. A lot of people are bothered by things like that. Others aren't (e.g. people who track their cars, I'd think, but maybe I'm wrong). Are there enough of those others to make a business case?

Think Ariel Atom, and then think Wrightspeed X-1 (based on the Atom). That's what I'm getting at, only based on a Lotus. If too many potential buyers value unique looks or absence of rattles, then it's a bad idea. I'm open to that.

electric ariel atom?

[e jet]

Originally Posted by Patricko

I don't know why anyone would spend $90k on a car that may or may not be all that its creator hoped it would be when they could spend a fraction more and have a properly engineered car that will have a resale value.

Good luck

Hmm, I guess I shouldn't mention the electric 2-11, then?

Seriously, you have a good point. I should have made it clear. I am presupposing a "properly engineered car." That means some significant investment capital. And a sound business case. Not a back-yard conversion.

[rob13572468]

Originally Posted by e jet

No, thanks for the opinion, this is good. You're right, any EV based on the Elise/Exige would have annoying noise issues. And wouldn't have the fun shifting. A lot of people are bothered by things like that. Others aren't (e.g. people who track their cars, I'd think, but maybe I'm wrong). Are there enough of those others to make a business case?

Thats the million dollar question... (perhaps literally so). I have always said that the most practical approach would have been to do a properly engineered electric conversion of the elise as opposed to the delorean-esque approach that tesla decided to take. If you were to build an electric elise and put it on the track for people to see and experience you would see alot of enthusiasm generated.

The only problem is that the lotus community is notorious for the "thats awesome.. Im totally in... oh wait you need money...." syndrom.

[DuffMan]

Here is what I would like to see: an electronic grand tourer car. The thing about converting a car to EV status is that it adds about a half thousand to whatever the original price tag is, minus drivetrain parts that can be sold. Putting a great EV system that costs 45-50k in a 20k car is in my opinion ridiculous, and also I think Tesla does have the market cornered on electric roadsters. Now, a GT car probably hasn't even been attempted for one big reason: range. What's the point of a GT car when its range is 100 miles? Well, my thoughts are start with a smaller GT car (a la Porsche 911) and stuff it with as many space efficient batteries as you can. Now it won't be used as a grand tourer, but it will have big appeal on the sense that it will be eye catching, and a wonderful daily commuter (providing the range is greater than 100 miles). I think that's the way to go for converting a car into an EV. Tesla's got the roadster, most other smaller cars are too cheap to even be considered in my opinion, and no one's trying a sort of GT-ish commuter car.

Also, there's probably a reason why no ones tried: it's very, very hard. So if it can't be done, then the entire point is moot, but I live in the land of optimism.

Would I buy your EV the way you have envisioned it? No. Why? 100 miles is too short in my opinion, and you'd be competing with the Tesla, which although would not be as "performance" oriented as yours would be, it would be far more usable and friendly. I could even see myself using it as a daily driver if I could ever afford one. Clubs can go in the passenger seat.

[e jet]

Originally Posted by rob13572468

Thats the million dollar question... (perhaps literally so). I have always said that the most practical approach would have been to do a properly engineered electric conversion of the elise as opposed to the delorean-esque approach that tesla decided to take. If you were to build an electric elise and put it on the track for people to see and experience you would see alot of enthusiasm generated.

The only problem is that the lotus community is notorious for the "thats awesome.. Im totally in... oh wait you need money...." syndrom.

By my calculation the Tesla is about 1,100 pounds heavier than the original Series 1 Elise! ... they need a lot of that weight to get a 220 mile range, but it's a design spiral. Heavier car = less range = need more batteries = heavier car = go back to step one. On the other hand, the AC Propulsion Tzero with lithium batteries weighs about 1,900 lbs and has a real world range of 300 miles. That's not just a brochure claim - I've driven the car and I can vouch for the numbers (I'm the one that came up with the name Tzero, by the way).

Several years ago, AC Propulsion installed their drivetrain in a non-Federal Elise for Tesla as a testbed, but Tesla made the decision to develop a new car. At that time, Tesla licensed the entire AC Propulsion drivetrain and all their patents for use in the Tesla Roadster (not the Whitestar or any other car). They were provided a complete data package - engineering drawings, everything. The liquid-cooled Tesla battery pack is an original design, but that cannot be said about the rest of the drive system. I suspect that some current rank-and-file Tesla employees are not aware of this history. Don't bother looking for it on the Tesla website.

I'm consulting for AC Propulsion now, but I did see some of this first hand. The yellow Elise brought over for Tesla ('03 or '04, I don't remember exactly) was the first Elise I ever sat in. I didn't get to drive it, but I always thought that it would have been a good car if kept simple. It would certainly be less expensive than the "deloreanesque" alternative!

[e jet]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Here is what I would like to see: an electronic grand tourer car. The thing about converting a car to EV status is that it adds about a half thousand to whatever the original price tag is, minus drivetrain parts that can be sold. Putting a great EV system that costs 45-50k in a 20k car is in my opinion ridiculous, and also I think Tesla does have the market cornered on electric roadsters. Now, a GT car probably hasn't even been attempted for one big reason: range. What's the point of a GT car when its range is 100 miles? Well, my thoughts are start with a smaller GT car (a la Porsche 911) and stuff it with as many space efficient batteries as you can. Now it won't be used as a grand tourer, but it will have big appeal on the sense that it will be eye catching, and a wonderful daily commuter (providing the range is greater than 100 miles). I think that's the way to go for converting a car into an EV. Tesla's got the roadster, most other smaller cars are too cheap to even be considered in my opinion, and no one's trying a sort of GT-ish commuter car.

Also, there's probably a reason why no ones tried: it's very, very hard. So if it can't be done, then the entire point is moot, but I live in the land of optimism.

Would I buy your EV the way you have envisioned it? No. Why? 100 miles is too short in my opinion, and you'd be competing with the Tesla, which although would not be as "performance" oriented as yours would be, it would be far more usable and friendly. I could even see myself using it as a daily driver if I could ever afford one. Clubs can go in the passenger seat.

Thanks for the comments!

Hmm, one showroom, a handful of cars and a lot of hype doesn't corner the market. I'd reserve that praise for something like the Prius, those seem to be breeding like rabbits!

I agree that the $50k drivetrain in a $20k car is a tough sell, unless it's to public utilities or governments who really don't care. The thing about EV's is that you really have to start out with a lightweight car. People are willing to pay for performance or luxury (or both), but if you have both (GT), that's an even tougher job as you point out. Tesla has tried to "luxify" their car, but it's like lipstick on a pig. You can't make an Elise a luxury car no matter how much leather you cram in it. It's the same situation with the poor-selling Lotus Europa. It can't compete in that market.

I'd go for luxury, but you need a large lightweight car (say, under 3,000 lbs), and I don't think there are any. Correct me if I'm wrong. Still talking about a conversion here, because you could never amortize the fixed costs of a completely new design.

[DuffMan]

Well, the reason I mentioned the 911 was because it has a curb weight of 3,075 lbs. I guess you could go with the Cayman, as that is 2,866 lbs., neither of which are light by EV standards, but they still should be reasonably light enough for use. I guess besides weight, the main problem would be space.

[LARRY]

Originally Posted by mopho

I am all for a fun to drive electric commuter car, but for a sports car that is for the most part a toy with very little practicality, no thank you.
The noise of an engine and rowing through the gears is half the fun.

+1