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#61 (permalink) | |
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I drank what?!?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 4,210
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With respect to converting to home solar and wind, those will need to be much more efficient and less costly for those to even be considered - I'd have to cover my entire roof in solar panels just to meet my day-to-day needs (not including an EV) and at a considerable cost. Also, last I checked, the sun's only out about half the day assuming no clouds (the half-day you'd be at work, which means you'll have to have a means of storage) and the wind doesn't blow 24/7. As it is, people who have put wind turbines on their properties have pissed off their neighbors with the noise turbines make and there are possible health concerns (http://www.viewsofscotland.org/libra...sehealth-1.pdf) - that last thing may be a bit of a stretch IMO, but it's not without at least some merit and I don't know about you but my nearest neighbor is much closer to being within 2m then they are the mandatory 2km recommended by that study. |
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#62 (permalink) | |
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I'm Lovin' It!
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When the technology gets to the point where panels small enough to fit on a car will power it without needing a recharge, then you've got something that will completely change private transportation. In the meantime, I think plug-in hybrids will be the practical alternative to pure IC propulsion. Pure electrics will make some inroads as commuter vehicles, but IMHO, that will be it for the foreseeable future.
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'05 AR Mods: Stebel Nautilus horn; tesprit's rearview mirror; Custom Interior Pictures; PPF full front clam wrap |
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#63 (permalink) | |
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Exige? SEXIGE!
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Phantom Black 2007 Exige S221.56436. All options. Black 01' Mustang Cobra 'Vert ("some" modifications) daily driver Facebook group: Add lightness...and Darkness! |
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#64 (permalink) | ||
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Exige? SEXIGE!
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also in the GridWorks link you posted, the 33% efficiency refers to large plants. later on in the next paragraph it mentions distributed energy facilities having the efficiency of 65-90% (as of 2001). you are also assuming all of the power generated by power plants use fossil fuels, there was a chart posted earlier that shows a large percentage of CA electricity is generated with renewable resources. Quote:
Helix Wind as far as efficiency, both solar and wind power is ready now. As I mentioned earlier, if a guy in foggy SF can make his old panel work, then it should work in a majority of the places. All it takes is to get the cost down and incentive for adoption.
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Phantom Black 2007 Exige S221.56436. All options. Black 01' Mustang Cobra 'Vert ("some" modifications) daily driver Facebook group: Add lightness...and Darkness! Last edited by IamBatman : 06-15-2009 at 06:54 PM. |
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#65 (permalink) | |||||
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anglophile in exile
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Easily stored - no. In fact storage of electricity is one of the biggest challenges the wind/wave/solar generation systems face. Storage at any reasonable useful scale is extremely expensive. Quote:
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- modern ICE vehicles are more like 25% efficient with an overall efficiency of ~20%Quote:
![]() In terms of development of green technologies despite them not being in actual production yet modelling can be done to show what they are theoretically capable of by taking best case developments of future technology. One of these studies demonstrated that the most theoretically efficient hydrogen fuel cell hybrid will not reach the same well to wheels efficiency a current generation Prius! |
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#66 (permalink) | |
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Exige? SEXIGE!
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even if you use your numbers, electric is more efficient. the original argument someone brought up was if you combine power generation, transmission and conversion, ICE was more efficient. I just wanted to show its simply not true, and modern ICE is terribly inefficient. This is not even factoring in the advantage of significant % use of renewable power generation vs burning pure fossil fuel, and the advantage of regenerative braking in electric/hybrid cars.
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Phantom Black 2007 Exige S221.56436. All options. Black 01' Mustang Cobra 'Vert ("some" modifications) daily driver Facebook group: Add lightness...and Darkness! |
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#67 (permalink) | |
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I'm Lovin' It!
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Your first point above, is the point I was expressing to Mikeyd. I don't see the solar generation of power doubling every 2 years until we reach 100% of the electrical needs of the country.
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'05 AR Mods: Stebel Nautilus horn; tesprit's rearview mirror; Custom Interior Pictures; PPF full front clam wrap |
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#68 (permalink) | |
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Exige? SEXIGE!
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Phantom Black 2007 Exige S221.56436. All options. Black 01' Mustang Cobra 'Vert ("some" modifications) daily driver Facebook group: Add lightness...and Darkness! |
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#69 (permalink) | |
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I'm Lovin' It!
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'05 AR Mods: Stebel Nautilus horn; tesprit's rearview mirror; Custom Interior Pictures; PPF full front clam wrap |
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#70 (permalink) |
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Exige? SEXIGE!
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Phantom Black 2007 Exige S221.56436. All options. Black 01' Mustang Cobra 'Vert ("some" modifications) daily driver Facebook group: Add lightness...and Darkness! |
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#71 (permalink) |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA USA
Posts: 91
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Funny facts :Cost of a Roadster is 135-170K.....(This is after adding all the bells and whistles...) Ummmm...Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?????? for an overweight Elise that handles like a Karman Ghia???? Ummm...no thanks......
Also, the infamous "S" is not a real car at the moment, (Is a cut and paste job that looks great in photoshop....) IF they DO make it...look at a WORKING prototype around...oh...2012/2013.....MAYBE (I caught a roadster on the 101S not long ago.....very UNIMPRESSED with what 135-170K does against a stock Exige S......) Not to mention how the wobbly goblin handles in hard turns.....can u say like snot on Teflon???? Between recalls, political infighting, the fact that most of the internal talent is either "Software or Hardware" self proclaimed "experts" who have NO automotive experience.....as well as a disproportionate amount of females who really have no idea what selling a HIGH end car, or running a manufacturing company is...(Agent X being the ONLY exception....) I will give Tesla a snowballs chance in hell....and that's ONLY because Mercedes Benz gave them a cash infusion which will get them through the next quarter or so before they collapse and go the way of the Yugo......(MBZ is in there just to harvest some R&D treasures, and bootstrap their own hybrid/electric tech...) As Jim Morrison used to say, "The future is uncertain and the end is always near!"
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Fly Fast, Fly low, and keep the ECM turned up to 11! |
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#72 (permalink) |
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Exige? SEXIGE!
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Musk doesn't have what it takes to run a car company. hell, he doesn't have what it takes to run ANY company. He doesn't know how to build cars.
IMHO, Tesla has a very small window of opportunity to stay relevant and they have a perfect track record of NOT meeting ANY one of their engineering goals (dates, performance, range, cost target, etc).
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Phantom Black 2007 Exige S221.56436. All options. Black 01' Mustang Cobra 'Vert ("some" modifications) daily driver Facebook group: Add lightness...and Darkness! |
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#73 (permalink) | ||
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Denuo Volatilis
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,714
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...i'd really like to see tesla swept up by competent management, because they've established some credible momentum behind a laudable concept sadly forsaken by the large industrial players a decade ago - whether it's a buyout, a takeover, or a stockholder rebellion, i don't care, i'd just like to see its seed burgeon...
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2005 Federal Elise | Touring | Storm Titanium ...73,000 miles and aging beautifully... 2000 New Beetle | Turbo | Reflex Silver ...107,000 miles of steadfast service... |
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#74 (permalink) | ||
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA USA
Posts: 91
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"Motorsports? You mean like NASCAR???? Oh, my husband watches them for the crashes, I don't care for that kind of thing...." Imagine IF the "C" level at Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW, Audi, Porsche or Lotus for that matter hired these types of people to produce the cars we love..... I don't work on my own motors, do my own dental work, or taxes for that matter..not my skill set....I hire an EXPERT in the field to do it....(They should too...not like there are a few THOUSAND out of work Automotive types out their....GM, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Toyota...etc.... Tesla has a life expectancy of.......2 quarters at best....because of mismanagement, and EGO....sucks, but..is FACT.... Maybe MBZ will snatch them up for 100M and make them a performance orientated SMART car...at least then they may get over their MANY quality issues.... (Oh, did I fail to mention they only have 3 service shops world wide...? And the purchase contract states that ANY service issues must be shipped to one of these 3 shops at YOUR dime ($1000 O/W) in order to be handled, or your warranty void?) I liked the car, the concept, but.....the management reminded me of a certain software company in the late 90's that no longer exists today.....
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Fly Fast, Fly low, and keep the ECM turned up to 11! |
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#75 (permalink) |
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now where was I...?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: with Peter and Lois Griffin
Posts: 155
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I really didn't see the point of the Tesla roadster until I watched this - It's beautiful!
It looks like an Enzo - and it cost 7 times less! I hope Tesla survives and Elon you are the MAN - you have started an absolutely unique car company and performed a fabulous service to human advancement! (The video also reminds me of the day I got my Elise). Really sorry for the Thread drift...
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I must not bet on the Top Gear board. I must not bet on the Top Gear board. I must not bet on the Top Gear board. |
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#76 (permalink) |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 1,205
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It's great to have the discussion back on topic. Tesla and drama are like, er, peas and carrots.
I agree re: Musk and his software background - this is the same thing as Edward Whitacre as CEO of GM. Management needs to know their product. Salesmen need to know their product. Maybe the chef at the cafeteria doesn't need to know the company's product, but there's no such thing as an effective manager that can be plugged n' played into any business like a USB dongle. Incidentally Whitacre is nearly 70 years old and has never used a computer. He probably calls his sofa a davenport. Perfect choice to breathe fresh air and take the company in a new direction. Tesla's attitude is mirrored by lots of companies that burned bright and died fast. Their business model would be workable if they actually had the funding, but they don't seem to. Meanwhile other companies with much greater resources are striving to do the same thing. Each of them has a hundredfold more engineers than Tesla does, and they already have vehicle platforms of their own. Tesla was allowed to be in the position they're in because these companies dropped the ball on EV's. Watch what happens when they catch up over the next ten years. |
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#77 (permalink) |
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now where was I...?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: with Peter and Lois Griffin
Posts: 155
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here is an example of solar power station with 24 hour generation capability, worth the 3 minutes - honestly
(posted in response to ChrisB)
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I must not bet on the Top Gear board. I must not bet on the Top Gear board. I must not bet on the Top Gear board. Last edited by mikeyd : 06-16-2009 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Attrib. |
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#78 (permalink) | |
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I drank what?!?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 4,210
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Apparently, my questioning the viability of these technologies and/or comparing them to current technology is contrary to what you either want to hear or what you believe; hence, I am dismissing them in your eyes. Truth is, they're not commercially viable now and probably won't be for some time to come whether you like it or not. Case in point: I've attached a spreadsheet showing the break-even point between an Elise Purist Edition and a Tesla; you'll find that the car will probably be dust before you recoup your investment in the Tesla despite the fact that they are basically the same (or at least extremely similar) cars - and that doesn't take into account the usable life of the battery or the cost to replace it. In other words, it is not now commercially viable. Honestly, I'd love it if we could meet our energy needs using rainbows, but that would be dreaming; I'm a realist. BTW, I wouldn't necessarily say that CNG is much cleaner or efficient. Take a gander at these and you might revise your statement: AskPablo: Clean Natural Gas? ( CNG, Compressed+Natural+Gas, CO2, GHG, Emissions,) California study suggests CNG emissions more toxic than diesel systems That last one also underscores the law of unintended consequences and the cost associated with pulling the trigger while the jury's still out. |
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#79 (permalink) | ||||
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I drank what?!?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 4,210
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Quote:
With respect to the GridWorks link, you fail to mention that the 5600 distributed energy sites accounted for a mere 6% of US power generation, which is negligible. And I didn't assume the power plants used solely fossil fuels (it wasn't even my stat; it was the DoE's). They state: Quote:
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Did you read the spec sheet on that turbine? I almost fell out of my chair when I did. Here it is: http://www.helixwind.com/download/fa...faqs041009.pdf It produces less than 1000 kWh/year with an average wind speed of 11 mph! Oh, and the kicker, it can be ALL YOURS for $11659+ depending on the height of the tower you need (HiWindPower Product 1). Hint: It will take at least 100 years to break even on that unless you live in a hurricane. And you won't be charging your Tesla with that bad-boy, either.Quote:
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#80 (permalink) | |
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Exige? SEXIGE!
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nice links, but emissions does not equal to efficiency. Try again. on your excel spreadsheet. I don't care how good your math is, your initial assumption is flawed. Are you comparing the development cost of a novel low volume powertrain (and 2 generations of transmissions) to a purchased mass market powertrain? seriously? |
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