Tesla Model S: made and powered by *coal*? - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community

 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 08:06 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 933
re: ???

Frankly, is this the best you can do? really????...

Just supports my point. There is actually a very bad movie you should watch it is called 'Ideocracy'.

Anton

Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
I guess the first clues should have been "liberal Myth" and veeeery with extra e's that the points would be based on science not bias
ageshelin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 08:27 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Woodlands Tx
Posts: 2,360
Ive seen idocracy many times. Best I can do? I wasnt trying to be insulting, other than to the author of those points. I assume they were quoted from somewhere and not original material.

I was just pointing out the "facts" you posted are not correct.

Seriously, my car is small
07 Exige-S, "Landshark"
05 Saffron Yellow "bumbleBee", on to a new owner
Also:
84 930 turbo, 06 WRX Wagon
aschen is offline  
post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 08:55 AM
DYNASTY
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 8,534
I watched 'Ghost Shark' last night. I wasn't as good as 'Sharknado' and the chicks weren't as hot.

Just sayin'
SwingLo is offline  
 
post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 09:21 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 933
re: Tax Accounting

I think there is a difference in Tax reduction and outright grants.

If the Oil industry is getting a $50BB tax break, this means that they are paying a larger amount in taxes. I find the laws strange that take with one hand but then give you something with another. I am all for simpler taxes.

However, the point is there is net inflow of $$ to our government from oil. The funny accounting or whether it whould be more or less...or what is their fare share... is another story.

The other point is that there is a net outflow for Electric car subsidies to both consumer (perhaps not the most evil) and to the industry. The subsidy to the industry is in forms of grants and loans is just because it is fashionable and politically correct. If electric cars are such a great idea andis worth our while, then it should be self-evident. IF not let everyone vote with their own wallets. I will admire the man with the first self funded electric car 10x more than the current guy. Currently the hand-outs for electric cars are nothing more than pork-barrel politics with a politically correct twist.

Anton

Quote:
Originally Posted by McMike View Post
I have to laugh whenI hear people complaining about how the government is ripping them off by subsidizing renewables but forget how much we subsidies fossil fuels.

16.3 billion in direct spending
50.3 billion in tax brakes

Source congresional joint committee on taxation, Offices of Management and budget, IRS

Then the national academies estimates 120 billion we pay in health care costs due to fossil fuels

Then there is the financial and moral cost for our involvement in the Middle East.
ageshelin is offline  
post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 09:24 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 933
re: I am the author of that post

I wrote the post.... and I do find the comments somewhat insulting. I do not think this is called for...

You do adhere to the old American ideal of free speech? How about 'free spelling'? As Americans You must, since the English is all mis-spelled.

The material is original and is based on my experience with electric car industry. I also have been involved with the oil industry. I lived in Woodlands for a few years ... Hence, what you get is my (biased) interpretation of raw data that I was privy to... and much more than you get to read in the papers.

Anton

P.S> If you live in the Woodlands. I remember seein an Elige in the BHI parking lot....

Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
Ive seen idocracy many times. Best I can do? I wasnt trying to be insulting, other than to the author of those points. I assume they were quoted from somewhere and not original material.

I was just pointing out the "facts" you posted are not correct.
ageshelin is offline  
post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 09:37 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Woodlands Tx
Posts: 2,360
Well appologies then. I do believe in creative spelling. I am bad at language, spelling, gramer, etc. However, I understand thermal efficencies and general enginnering very well. Some of the things you posted are demonstrably incorrect I am afraid.

I dont work for BHI but I do work for a direct competitor. I manage an engineering group responsible for research and development of battery powered electromechanical devices so am privy to some data as well.

Seriously, my car is small
07 Exige-S, "Landshark"
05 Saffron Yellow "bumbleBee", on to a new owner
Also:
84 930 turbo, 06 WRX Wagon
aschen is offline  
post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 11:10 AM
Registered User
 
fitfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego!
Posts: 7,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ageshelin View Post
Myth about Electric cars:

1. Electricity is clean energy.
2. Electricity is more efficient.

If I can prove above that the obvious conclusion is that Electric cars are another liberal myth that hits our collective pocketbook and distracts us from real issues at hand.

1. Electricity is clean

a. It would be if it was produced from Hydro, solar, wind or nuclear (?)... and I am stretching the truth as much as I can here. Hydro dams damage the environment in uncountable ways. Large scale solar or wind is yet to be proven and its environmental impact is unceratain. Nuclear has well known problems and probably should not be on this list. (When I was a kid I thought few nations could have nuclear, since there are few geologically and environmentally stable places on this planet where mother nature would not be able to release the radiation. Little did I know that Japanese built a bunch of nukes right on the most active fault! Kids do not know anything anyway.)

b. As was pointed out here most of the energy is generated by fossil fuel. Gas is fossil fuel, too, in case you have nto checked. It produces a little more steram that COx, but that is all.

c. Li batteries are not an environmental disaster waiting to happen. Li is not all that safe for humans. The elecrelite and the substrate is a nasty fluoro-carbon.

d. Fossil fuel will run out. Not in our lifetime or our grand-kids lifetime. There is a difference in what is called proven reserves and actual reserves.

e. What about the other 95% of the world which continues to burn fossil fuel at ever increasing rates with no regulation....

2. The electric car seems to be a more efficient way to deliver motive power.

a. This appears to be true. Fossil plant efficiency is 55%, transmission is 95% and electric motor is 90% to 99%. Compared to 20% efficiency for gasoline this looks correct. Ooops! One step missing. What happens when you charge those batteries. Do they get hot? The charging process is veeeeery inefficient, it wastes 50% of the energy. It is better to run a Diesel car it si 45% efficient.

b. Electric car wastes less energy when idling. This is correct. Besides converting 20% of the fuel's energy to power, gasoline car wastes a lot of gas just sitting at trtaffic lights. This is why hybrids make sense, they solve this energy delivery problem. There is a simpler solution Diesel, again. Diesel motor consumes very little gas at idle, just enough to turn the accessories.

Therefore, a better answer is a Diesel car. 50% energy conversion efficeincy at all speeds (no throttle). Mr. Diesel was a genious. The technology exists. Thedistribution netwoirk is widely avaialble.

Electric cars just put a lot of our $$ into politician's cronies pockets. in other countries this would be called corruption or irresponsible management of public funds, at best. Here we think it is something we must do.

Anton

somewhat correct (at least in reference to the plug in electrics, yes - but plug in electric are a stop gap and not a 'good' solution. ill add more footnotes

what is the most efficient form of transport? diesel electric series hybrid, and that is what trains are. on board generation with electric drive.

electric drive (motor, traction motor) is the most efficient technology we have.
so the only question is where to source the electricity to drive the motor. plug in has a variety of issues, it is "better" than fossil fuel IC - where you have all that, plus the waste and cost to distribute the fuel to a point of sale, and then the hazards of extracting and refining and transporting it. so plant power and high tension distribution is far better... the storage of that- is whats problematic. batteries sux. fossil fuel is a fantastic energy storage solution.

.....hence.... optimal efficiency with on board power generation. the beauty of series electric hybrid is that, once, say - fuel cells are viable, all you need to do is swap out the diesel generator for a fuel cell generator or whatever...

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
-Lotus Cars VP of Global Design
fitfan is offline  
post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 11:26 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Woodlands Tx
Posts: 2,360
The problem with electric cars nearly entirely is batteries have terrible energy density and are very expensive per unit of stored energy.

Electric motors are awsome, batteries are pretty thermodynamically efficent, they are just too heavy and too expensive.

He who invents a better battery (or fuel cell) will quite literally change the world. They are the limiting factor in alot of technologies

Seriously, my car is small
07 Exige-S, "Landshark"
05 Saffron Yellow "bumbleBee", on to a new owner
Also:
84 930 turbo, 06 WRX Wagon
aschen is offline  
post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 11:34 AM
Registered User
 
fitfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego!
Posts: 7,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
Most of this is just flat out wrong. I work in the oil industry and I am no proponent of electric cars really......but this is absurd

They just made up a number for the charging efficency of batteries....it is 80 to 95 % in practice.
+1

a lot of the IC proponents also do not include the cost of point of sale.
apples to apples... you have a plant, and a pipe... after that with fossil fuel as an onboard energy storage you need to:

build hundreds of thousands of "points of sale" (gas stations).
you need to ship, transport, distribute the product to the point of sale.
in the case of gasoline - you need have extra refinery steps and process that you don't have otherwise.

gas is an amazing energy storage solution
batteries are a terrible one

hence why plug in only electrics vehicles are conceptually flawed.

the concept of "eliminating" gas or diesel is flawed. (at least in the next 80 or more years....) so optimal conservation and efficiency are the "smart" answer.

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
-Lotus Cars VP of Global Design
fitfan is offline  
post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 11:37 AM
Registered User
 
fitfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego!
Posts: 7,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
The problem with electric cars nearly entirely is batteries have terrible energy density and are very expensive per unit of stored energy.

Electric motors are awsome, batteries are pretty thermodynamically efficent, they are just too heavy and too expensive.

He who invents a better battery (or fuel cell) will quite literally change the world. They are the limiting factor in alot of technologies
but "electric cars does not = plug in only - that is a "public misconception"

fuel cell will be the magic sauce, that will doom the IC engine - no smart reason for it after that... on board generation is the answer, not on board electrical storage (batteries).

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
-Lotus Cars VP of Global Design
fitfan is offline  
post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 11:39 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 160
I hope all of you realize that Tesla is just one symbol (of many) of the two true issues that should be discussed.

1...whether the government has the right to take money it receives from it's citizens and give it to private entities in exchange for nothing.

2...whether man induced global warming is a fact or merely a political construct.

Steve
Steven Fehr is offline  
post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 11:48 AM
Registered User
 
fitfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego!
Posts: 7,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Fehr View Post
I hope all of you realize that Tesla is just one symbol (of many) of the two true issues that should be discussed.

1...whether the government has the right to take money it receives from it's citizens and give it to private entities in exchange for nothing.

2...whether man induced global warming is a fact or merely a political construct.

Steve
? really.... chenny stole billions of tax dollars into a private corp, and at the expense of millions of peoples lives and health. Tesla is a harmless fraction of a penny on a dollar... in context as you framed - its a non issue.

transportation efficiency and conservatism is first an economic problem, second a resources issues and third an environmental one. and "global warming" is only a portion of the environmental issues. its pretty far down the list of issues here.

lastly - people will make their money off other peoples ignorance, that will never change, and is why the two issue are 'front lines' its marketing talk.

so really - nothing here to discuss other than how these "issues" are being marketed to you....

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
-Lotus Cars VP of Global Design
fitfan is offline  
post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 11:51 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Woodlands Tx
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitfan View Post
but "electric cars does not = plug in only - that is a "public misconception"

fuel cell will be the magic sauce, that will doom the IC engine - no smart reason for it after that... on board generation is the answer, not on board electrical storage (batteries).
I used electric car in the context of pure electric......no internal combustion

I think fuel cell technology will outpace battery development as well....but we will have to see how it unfolds. Supercapacitors will likely play a role as well.

current electric cars are compromised, of course. However, they have come a long way since the EV1. Also the first cars were compromised compared to the horse and buggy. Im still not buying one any time soon.

If I want to let my liberal side show, Ill say the problem with modern cars efficency wise is that they are too big, too nice, and too comfortable.

THe auto industry has done a fantastic job makeing big cars almost as fuel efficent as small cars of yore. Imagine if that effort was more concentrated on makeing smaller cars more efficent. Some modern conventional cars get close to 40 mpg which is pretty impressive.

Seriously, my car is small
07 Exige-S, "Landshark"
05 Saffron Yellow "bumbleBee", on to a new owner
Also:
84 930 turbo, 06 WRX Wagon
aschen is offline  
post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2013, 12:08 PM
Registered User
 
fitfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego!
Posts: 7,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
I used electric car in the context of pure electric......no internal combustion

I think fuel cell technology will outpace battery development as well....but we will have to see how it unfolds. Supercapacitors will likely play a role as well.

current electric cars are compromised, of course. However, they have come a long way since the EV1. Also the first cars were compromised compared to the horse and buggy. Im still not buying one any time soon.

If I want to let my liberal side show, Ill say the problem with modern cars efficency wise is that they are too big, too nice, and too comfortable.

THe auto industry has done a fantastic job makeing big cars almost as fuel efficent as small cars of yore. Imagine if that effort was more concentrated on makeing smaller cars more efficent. Some modern conventional cars get close to 40 mpg which is pretty impressive.
i agree with that totally - which is why i say transportation is first an economic problem. Gordan murry has it "solved" from an efficiency standpoint, but (at least in the US - is anyone going to buy that thing? ...no). a decent car, that gets 60+ MPG is very easy to do today. literally put a high efficiency diesel in a stripped out prius body... and your over 60mpg.

selling it... thats another thing. VW's 1 liter concept was very cool. had a functional on the road of something around 150 mpg. now thats awesome sauce. bugatti engineering to get max. efficiency. id drive that!

people want (in the US and elsewhere) want big luxury and will pay at the pump and or dealer for that privilege.

electric drive is the best engineering solution - but generating/storing the energy in a car platform is not yet commercially there.

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
-Lotus Cars VP of Global Design
fitfan is offline  
post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-25-2013, 02:33 AM
Registered User
 
Hextavo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 686
I honestly think the best mode of transport would be some sort of batteryless electric drive vehicle (maybe a small battery say 40 miles), which basically would either have an advanced cable system that would run along the power grid or perhaps be wirelessly charged (think Nikola Tesla). Since I'm still waking up this basically sums it up:
The All-Electric Car You Never Plug In - IEEE Spectrum

Now imagine your 1000 lb car screaming wirelessly down the road. Carbon fiber tub, light wheels and the such. There is the future IMO
Hextavo is offline  
post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 06:43 PM
Registered User
 
MrBlah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Longmont, CO
Posts: 189
I'm going to resurrect this thread because reasons.

A close friend of mine is a mine engineer. Her Master's Thesis was on long wall coal mining. She has always wanted a Tesla so she can have a car powered by coal.

On another note, a different friend of mine just bought a Model S. His apartment building has an electric car charging station in the garage that is powered exclusively by solar panels on the roof of the building.

2005 Lotus Elise
2010 Subaru WRX STi
1984 Honda CB450SC
MrBlah is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Lotus Discussions > Electric Avenue- Tesla, ZAP, Dodge EV1, electric Lotus cars

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome