On midengined cars and driving

[Barney Jr]

glol, thx. I guess I just made an arse of myself... nothing new there then

[thegit]

I believe that the gearing of the steering and the tightness of the course would determine thumb placement. If there are more than 3 turns from lock to lock you may find your thumbs at risk as you seek the next handhold.
Should never have to risk the thumbs on the street surface.

You can't say never to allow risky thumb placement unless the environment is sanitary, ie , a closed circuit where you have flogged the same car around for many laps.
Even the best(arguably) have had their thumbs at risk... Colin MacRae broke a thumb the day he decided to fire Nicky Grist as Co-Pilot .
m

[armitage]

Hmm... interesting enough, I can't remember how I place my thumbs (which are still ) and I've been driving my car in a 4+ hour stint today not long ago. I do know that over here in the Netherlands (Europe) they used to teach 2/10 but have recently switched to 3/9.

Walshy taught me 3/9 with that rotational steering stuff and I've been using it on track and on the road ever since... but still... can't remember where my thumbs go... perhaps I should visit my garage and sit in the car

[rob13572468]

ok i need a bit of advice on the oversteer topic; ive been driving FF cars my whole life and while i have become quite adept at controlling front drive cars in emergency/slide type situations and even had a DB7 for a few months, the elise is my first midengine car. i have read through as much as i could find on the subject and so far while i have not had any control problems with the elise i have noticed some interesting things happening that run somewhat contrary to what is being said should happpen...

the specfic issue is in regard to throttle induced oversteer at somewhat low speeds in the elise. i have been playing around in empty parking lots attempting to get used to the various traction loss conditions in an attempt to learn and i have found that i can break the rear wheels loose with a simple stab of the throttle when i am making a (somewhat) sharp turn at ~40 mph and in 2nd gear. while the rear coming loose was not much of a surprise; what was interesting was that i was easily able to correct with a very small amount of countersteer and by lifting and reapplying throttle. when i say countersteer i mean that if the turn was left and the steering was at 90 degrees left, the countersteer would be turning the wheel back towards 0 to at most 5 degrees right. the throttle lift is probably more like a modulation: not lifting completely off as in a panic situation but rather pulling back to maybe 10% throttle and then reapplying to accellerating out of the turn at right about the time the front wheels are pointed straight again.

according to everything i read, when i lifted off of the throttle, the unweighting of the real wheels should have made the spin much worse, particularly the first time this happened, which ironically was an actual unexpected event; that first time i was taken by surprise and i pretty much backed all the way off of the throttle in the typical panic response but still countersteered and recovered easily though i didnt reapply throttle until it had straightened out. in each event, the slide started at around the apex of the turn and the rear slid from that 45 degree position past straight (0 deg) and to probably 20-30 degrees past straight. it felt as though going back on throttle straightend the car back up but at that point it seemed that the wheels already had traction back anyways. of course each time the whole thing happened in the course of like 1 second and my overall respoinse was something like "woooo... this car is fun" but my ultimate goal is to understand how and why the car does these things so as to develop the correct automatic response for when the unexpected does happen.

my car has the touring package, stock and no LSS. its got 1000 miles on it and the tire treads are still in new condition. road conditions are typical chicago (crappy, bits of gravel and not very smooth) but i have been able to induce the slide on dry, relatively smooth and clean pavement.

my question is this: when i came off the throttle, the oversteer did not get worse; is this because the speed was not fast enough i.e. the same situation at 65 mph would have sent me spinning or was that exactly what was supposed to happen and the only reason that i did not come further around is because i went back on throttle as the vehicle came across the exit line? as i said it felt as though by the time i reapplied throttle that i already had traction back under the rear wheels but maybe it just felt that way. could it be possible that the correct way to handle the situation would be to simply keep on throttle and then apply additional countersteer?

i have noticed the difference between how a midengined car oversteers as opposed to a front engine/rear drive car like the DB7... the elise feels more like a pivoting effect rather than the swinging that the DB7 did or even the SL55. those cars got away very easily and it felt very out of control because of the lack of weight over the rear wheels. with the elise it seems as though the engine keeps the rear wheels planted but since i have not been in one of these violent spins that i have seen i really do not know what to expect. id appreciate any input or comments on this...

[NMRJock]

Originally Posted by rob13572468

...i have found that i can break the rear wheels loose with a simple stab of the throttle when i am making a (somewhat) sharp turn at ~40 mph and in 2nd gear. while the rear coming loose was not much of a surprise; what was interesting was that i was easily able to correct with a very small amount of countersteer and by lifting and reapplying throttle.

My hypothesis (worth every penny of what I'm being paid for it) is that you weren't at the limits of handling of the car. You induced the oversteer by stabbing the throttle. Then you counter-steered to correct the problem that you had caused. Blipping the throttle helped because you had the front wheels pointed the other way (your counter-steer) and the blip of the throttled helped to rotate the car (back to straight).

If you want to see what snap throttle-off oversteer is really like you need to find a big parking lot (make sure there is nothing to hit) and drive in a circle of constant radius as fast as you can. You should be at the point where more steering input does not change the direction of the car. i.e. If you are going clockwise and turn the wheel farther right the circle does not get any smaller. Then, without doing anything else, just take your foot off of the gas (and get ready to put both feet in).

If you have the means and the time I strongly recommend an introduction to racing course taught by one of the reputable schools. Make sure to choose one that uses rear-engined cars in their instruction. I can personally vouch for Bertil Roos. Excellent program with top-knotch instructors. I took their advanced classes. One of the best experiences of my life.

[Stan]

I think you nailed it Paul... Autocross schools are a nice, safe way to experience the limit in an Elise while learning the ropes. Many local clubs offer them each Spring, my club just had theirs last Saturday.

[Surferjer]

The resident experts here helped me out with lift off oversteer, and I had to consciously think about NOT doing it for a while. Now it's second nature. It's neat to see the brake before and quick shot of gas in the corners come naturally. One word of caution-it is incredibly easy to OVER correct the car when you have committed throttle oversteer. Suddenly you are correcting an even bigger problem. Takes practice, but the ELise is a fun car to practice in...

On thumbs, mine wrap around the wheels just above what I like to describe as my pre-molded palm pressure spots. Make sure you remove the 7.5 amp fuse (#10 I think) before autoxing to avoid honking the horn all over the course.

[Edgar]

rob,

NMR got it right. If you break traction on stabbing the throttle deliberately, the car is not on the limit and by gentle lifting, you are restoring traction to the rear tyres.

You might like to try to use the momentum of the car a bit more.

Try entering the corner in higher speed and you should be able to come off the brakes and use the downshift to carry on the weight shift to the front, take a later turn in point to make the line more abrupt to initiate the rear to slide, then try opposite lock with or without throttle to see the difference.

It is easier to power slide for control with LSD too.

[JonOrangeElise]

Too much intellectualization going on here. It's impossible for any of us to comment with any degree of real helpfulness because we have not seen or driven this turn in person (or at least have knowingly done so).

That said: I suggest you get the car first, and then do what any smart driver would do: incrementally increase your entry speed, bit-by-small-bit.

And don't drive 10/10ths on the street! (At least not on my street! )

Originally Posted by mrluky

read it all. i wish school was this informative. give me more!.

there are two turns i frequent. one really freaks me out, but i think the one that i think i can handle(hit it 10/10) is the dangerous one. get it?

the one i think is possible to 10/10 is: 25mph righthand corkscrew , sort of a long C-shaped(35-45degree) turn. a landrover can go 50mph on it with a modderate sense of "oh ****" (i was a passenger) . and when you come out of the turn, down hill dip into a slight turn that creates an S-turn.

the one the worries me: coming into it from a mild downhill straight, id say the turn is no more than 20degree lefthand turn, and maybe 100meters in total(really..un-sharp). i dont know why, but i always feel like im gunna slide off, so before i hit it, i slow ~5-10mph below the limit then take the turn. maybe its just that fact that there is 2 yards of grass, then an old wood fence, then water, if you lose control.

anyway, how would you judge, or take these turns? *thinks of any large empty parking lots*

[NMRJock]

Originally Posted by mrluky

i should take pictures. im not saying i would go 10/10.

better question, would easing off the gas or taping the brake at 40-50mph on a declining(topographicly) turn send you spinning?

If you are at the limit, yet is would. Find that parking lot you talked about. If your car is broken in this is something you should see for yourself.

[Randy Chase]

You are still unweighting the rear end by coasting which means you need to take the turn a lot slower. If you are already faster into the turn, coasting is not the best option.

[Vantage]

Weight transfer is a basic thing to understand. For novicies like you and I, it's definitely good to brake in a straight line, and smoothly let off the brake before turning in. Though sometimes it's good to have a bit more weight on the front of the car, especially with the base package to get the front to tuck in more, but you can experiment with that later. Stick to the basics for now.

I don't think it's a good practice to coast around turns. Generally I like to at least get back on the throttle a bit and accelerate through the apex and out of the turn. And when you become more advanced, you can also use the throttle to adjust the attitude of the car. You can transfer more weight to the back of the car by applying throttle, but you can cause both understeer and oversteer this way. Lifting can alleviate your understeer, and can also cause a spin. Just depends on the context of your inputs.

I think the thing to do is take an incremental approach. Focus on smoothness, the line, and not over reacting. When drivers are as young as we are, every year of experience makes a huge difference.

Hope I didn't say anything incorrect!

- J

[NMRJock]

As a rule (and I know that they're made to be broken) when you are driving fast you want to minimize coasting. Your fastest laps are when you use all the brakes or all the gas. If you only use partial braking or accelerating that is the same as coasting.
I miss racing school. What a great experience.

[Randy Chase]

The one place that does commonly break that rule is in sweeping turns. There is an optimum speed and throttle point/slip angle and it is not normally WOT.

Another time that the rule is commonly broken is when you have to practice throttle modulation for higher hp cars.

[NMRJock]

Absolutely on the sweepers. And throttle modulation on a fast sweeper is nearly heaven on earth.
I've never driven a high HP car in anger, so I don't know about that first hand. My race school instructors liked to say that under 7 or 800 HP that you should be all brakes or all gas all the time or the car was not set up properly (sweepers excepted).

[pianomaniac]

Speaking of all gas or all brakes.......in 1995, I was running my MR2 in a Toyota sponsored track event at Sears Point. I had the pleasure of sitting in the passenger seat for several laps with Dan Gurney driving. This was an eye opening experience for me, as it truly was ALL GAS or ALL BRAKE.......ALL THE TIME. There were cones set on the track at various entry, apex and exit points. We were sometimes sideways and occasionally knocking off cones. He apologized for knocking them over saying "Sorry about that.....I must be rusty"

I couldn't take my eyes off of his inputs and the track so I never even glanced at the speedometer or tach. I just remember the sound of constantly being on the rev limiter.

Unfortunately......I will never have that experience in the drivers seat.

[Zeede]

Am I correct in my assumption that the Elise doesn't have any power steering, or stability control, ie no alphabet soup? Does it even have ABS?

[Vantage]

ABS was added for the U.S. version. Otherwise, the driving bit is up to you. 5-10 Elises will be gathering in Carlsbad tomorrow morning if you need a first hand demo! Good luck with your buying process.

- J

[Zeede]

Ooh, I'll be in Mission Viejo, which isn't *too* far away, but alas, I am busy already in the morning. You guys have a great run though!

[NMRJock]

Originally Posted by mrluky

just a general Q:

when you downshift to slowdown or stop, should you revmatch? what happens if you dont?

any input?

The quick answer is that you should rev match. However, if you're just learning to drive fast concentrate on everything else you have to do. If you don't rev match you upset the balance of the car a bit and make threshold braking a bit more difficult.

~Paul