Thinking of replacing my STi with dedicated track Elise

[briancl]

I have a 2005 Subaru STi that is fairly heavily modified for the track. It's a blast to drive, but it is very expensive to upkeep due to the high consumption rate of brakes/fluids and the constant break+fix of the overworked OE parts. I am thinking that a 2005 Elise would do the trick for dedicated track duty.

What should I look for in a used 2005 Elise that is used only for the track? I see many "higher" mileage Elise's on the market for around 25-28k, but they only have 25-30k miles on the clock. To me that is still practically new. Are there any drawback to these higher mileage Elises? I don't mind a couple door dings or scratches on the paint, but I also don't want something that is heavily modified. I'd like to keep the car as close to stock as possible to maintain the highest level of reliability possible.

I ran into a couple Elise owners at a local track day, and they said they have something like 5000 track miles on their 2005 Elises and they are running 100% stock with no problem. They also claim to only replace pads once per season and rotors once every 2 years. Is that a common experience for heavily tracked Elises? Do these things take that kind of abuse? From my Subaru experience, after a few advanced level track days, things start to break. And $500 rotors and $300 pads are consumed in 1 or 2 days.

As for options, I think the Touring package is really not necessary for me. Is there a "track pack" on the 2005 model? Should I seek out a used Elise with that package, or can I get the car track ready on my own? I am obviously not concerned with warranty, but I do want to make the car as reliable and "over-engineered" as possible. Basically, I am looking to reverse my Subaru experience.

Thanks..

[knucklehead]

Get a base Elise and then get Brent's aero package and upgrade the suspension. You'll love it.

[DPM]

Originally Posted by briancl

I have a 2005 Subaru STi that is fairly heavily modified for the track. It's a blast to drive, but it is very expensive to upkeep due to the high consumption rate of brakes/fluids and the constant break+fix of the overworked OE parts. I am thinking that a 2005 Elise would do the trick for dedicated track duty.

What should I look for in a used 2005 Elise that is used only for the track? I see many "higher" mileage Elise's on the market for around 25-28k, but they only have 25-30k miles on the clock. To me that is still practically new. Are there any drawback to these higher mileage Elises? I don't mind a couple door dings or scratches on the paint, but I also don't want something that is heavily modified. I'd like to keep the car as close to stock as possible to maintain the highest level of reliability possible.

I ran into a couple Elise owners at a local track day, and they said they have something like 5000 track miles on their 2005 Elises and they are running 100% stock with no problem. They also claim to only replace pads once per season and rotors once every 2 years. Is that a common experience for heavily tracked Elises? Do these things take that kind of abuse? From my Subaru experience, after a few advanced level track days, things start to break. And $500 rotors and $300 pads are consumed in 1 or 2 days.

As for options, I think the Touring package is really not necessary for me. Is there a "track pack" on the 2005 model? Should I seek out a used Elise with that package, or can I get the car track ready on my own? I am obviously not concerned with warranty, but I do want to make the car as reliable and "over-engineered" as possible. Basically, I am looking to reverse my Subaru experience.

Thanks..

Did you ever consider taking your STI to AMS and having them set the car up right?

[RoadDad]

Originally Posted by briancl

I don't mind a couple door dings or scratches on the paint...

The doors won't ding, they crack, as does the rest of the car. That little kiss on the tire wall or the car next to you may run you $$$$ to repair.

I'd say go for a spec miata.

[briancl]

Originally Posted by knucklehead

Get a base Elise and then get Brent's aero package and upgrade the suspension. You'll love it.

What is Brent's aero package? I searched but came up with nothing..

[briancl]

Originally Posted by DPM

Did you ever consider taking your STI to AMS and having them set the car up right?

The STi is setup well... It's just too fast and heavy. It is difficult to manage the heat.. This is a very common problem with tracked STi's.

[Zinhead]

If you had a black STI at the Autobahn, I am one of the guys you met at the track. The Elise you took a ride in is a base 05 with the stock suspension and tires. Some cars have the Sport Pack option group which has stiffer sport suspension, lightweight forged alloys, Yokohama A048 LTS tires and twin oil coolers. An additional upgrade would be the Track Pack which has adjustable Bilstiens, adjustable front roll bar and harness bar. The Track Pack cars also have a reinforced toe link brace from the factory.

If you are going to track the car, make sure to get the hardtop. Some groups (like BMW) consider a topless Lotus to be a convertible and won't let you run with them because their insurance won't cover it. Alternatively, you could get an Exige which all of the track stuff included plus a better set of seats for track use.

I don't think 25,000 miles is alot for these cars. The engine and transmission are stock Toyota which is pretty under-stressed in stock form. As for consumables, the car is very easy on them. Brake pads lasting a whole season seems optimistic, but rotor and tire wear is minimal compared to other cars.

The only things I would consider necessary for a heavily tracked Lotus would be a Moroso Oil Sump, a good alignment and corner balancing and some sort of reinforced toe link brace like the factory offers. This is an aftermarket version.

RTDbrace reinforcement brace for the Lotus Elise and Exige - Sector111

[Iman]

Originally Posted by briancl

What is Brent's aero package? I searched but came up with nothing..

New side sills, flat undertray, and gigantor diffuser (large pics)

[briancl]

Originally Posted by Zinhead

If you had a black STI at the Autobahn, I am one of the guys you met at the track.

Cool. Are you the guy who talked to me for a while about the Elise? I really have been thinking long and hard about it, and it's time to make a change.

The Elise you took a ride in is a base 05 with the stock suspension and tires. Some cars have the Sport Pack option group which has stiffer sport suspension, lightweight forged alloys, Yokohama A048 LTS tires and twin oil coolers. An additional upgrade would be the Track Pack which has adjustable Bilstiens, adjustable front roll bar and harness bar. The Track Pack cars also have a reinforced toe link brace from the factory.

So an 05 or 06 Elise will have either stock or Sport Pack (aka LSS) suspension, right? A Track Pack was not offered during those years, but could have been added separately. From what I am seeing, it might be easier to just buy a stock or Sport Pack 05/06 Elise and add the toe link brace and harness bar. Suspension I can deal with later.

If you are going to track the car, make sure to get the hardtop. Some groups (like BMW) consider a topless Lotus to be a convertible and won't let you run with them because their insurance won't cover it. Alternatively, you could get an Exige which all of the track stuff included plus a better set of seats for track use.

Does any Elise hardtop fit, or do I need a specific one per color/year? All Exiges come with better seats? Do any of the Elises come with those seats as an option? What is better about them? Fit, bolstering, slotted for submarine belt?

The only things I would consider necessary for a heavily tracked Lotus would be a Moroso Oil Sump, a good alignment and corner balancing and some sort of reinforced toe link brace like the factory offers. This is an aftermarket version.

Subarus have oil cavitation problems, too, so I am familiar with oil problems. I like safety and reliability, so I may have to look into that. I'll stay with street tires for a while, though, so maybe it will not be a priority until I move up to racing compounds.

Thanks for your help.

[briancl]

Originally Posted by Iman

New side sills, flat undertray, and gigantor diffuser (large pics)

Yikes. I don't think I could do that. I would still be driving to and from the track which includes some not so smooth Chicago roads.

[Vampyre]

Originally Posted by RoadDad

The doors won't ding, they crack, as does the rest of the car. That little kiss on the tire wall or the car next to you may run you $$$$ to repair.

I'd say go for a spec miata.

+1

Spec Miata, fun / cheap / easy repairs.

[briancl]

Originally Posted by Vampyre

+1

Spec Miata, fun / cheap / easy repairs.

No thanks.. Not really what I want. I drove a Miata for a couple years, so I know it well enough to know that I don't want one now.

[rackhenry]

Originally Posted by briancl

No thanks.. Not really what I want. I drove a Miata for a couple years, so I know it well enough to know that I don't want one now.

I have similar requirements, in that I am trying to get a less expensive track car. My exige is a bit to much for me to wipe... However SM, while a great series for W/W is not such a fun car for DE or TT. Did some research recently on that front. As some of the other posters have stated, minor repairs can be very costly, so make sure you get the right car/price for what it is you are trying to do.

[briancl]

Originally Posted by rackhenry

I have similar requirements, in that I am trying to get a less expensive track car. My exige is a bit to much for me to wipe... However SM, while a great series for W/W is not such a fun car for DE or TT. Did some research recently on that front. As some of the other posters have stated, minor repairs can be very costly, so make sure you get the right car/price for what it is you are trying to do.

Yep. Agreed. I can walk away from my STi, and a 25000 mile 2005 Elise is about the same cost... So I could walk away from that, too.

I could continue to drive my STi forever, but I am worried about the constant $1000-2000 dollar "upgrades" to failing parts and systems on top of the high track day maintenance and upkeep. The motor will eventually fail, and then from there it's really downhill because rebuilt motors never last long. I need to get away before the costs get too high.

[jasper]

I'll chime in here with my .02.

I had the same experience with my '04 Subaru. It was easy to make fast and fun to drive but it was hard on the brakes and various other components. After frying many wheel bearings and braking on axle in addition to other assorted stuff, I retired it from any track work and now use it as a daily city beater, a job which is seems perfect for.

So onto the lotus. I think a used elise would make a fantastic track car. Far better than a miata, especially if you want to drive it to and from the track. The only benefit I can see to a miata is that it is cheaper - cheaper to buy, and to maintain and to fix - so you have to decide what your personal finances will allow. A used elise is pretty cheap and unless you crash it into a wall, is cheap to maintain.

This is how I would approach this. Find the cheapest used elise you can. Don't be afraid of a little mileage. The sport pack would be a plus because of the wheels and shocks, but both are easily upgraded. I would think the first must have mod for a tracked car is a toe link brace, because it seems those failures can be unpredictable and catastrophic. Thats it. Time to learn how to drive again because it drives so much differently than the subaru. Totally different style. It will take some time to pick up.

When you think that your getting the most out of the car you want to start looking into fuel starve and oiling issues, especially if your on really sticky tires. This has been heavily discussed but basically a new or reconditioned tank or swirl pot for fueling issues and a new oil pan +/- and accusump for oiling.

Personally I would hold off and any aero or power adders at first until you really have a feel for the car and how it behaves. After that, if you want, drop some cash on wings, spitters and diffusers and there will be a noticeable benefit. Supercharging solutions are also pretty well thought out at this point, so that is relatively straightforward, if not sort of expensive. You really want to adress the fueling and oiling issues first.

So, thats how I would play it. Pesonally I would keep the motor stock and spend that money on track time, tires and such. Totally different beasts, but in my experience the lotus has been trouble free with frequent track events, and 16,000 total miles. Still have the original rotors and other than routine maintenance no problems - only mods are an RTD brace and a harness bar.

Cheers.

[SteveLevin]

I'm obviously biased towards something you don't drive to/from the track. It gives you the advantage of really being able to drive the car to the limits -- and to keep the costs down when you do make a mistake.

Have you considered just renting a race car for test days? Even if you don't race, many events have test days right before the race weekend that offer at least as much track time as HPDE events and are at least as sane (if not moreso since the folks during a true test day KNOW there's no National Test Day Championship to compete for)

Steve

[briancl]

Originally Posted by SteveLevin

I'm obviously biased towards something you don't drive to/from the track. It gives you the advantage of really being able to drive the car to the limits -- and to keep the costs down when you do make a mistake.

Have you considered just renting a race car for test days? Even if you don't race, many events have test days right before the race weekend that offer at least as much track time as HPDE events and are at least as sane (if not moreso since the folks during a true test day KNOW there's no National Test Day Championship to compete for)

Steve

I don't see the lack of trailer as a big disadvantage. 90% of my track time is spent at Autobahn which is about 40 miles from my house. I had to call someone for a ride home when I flatbeded my Subaru due to a busted radiator hose.. and that wasn't terribly inconvenient. Meanwhile, I tend to dial it down a notch on the track knowing that I have to drive the thing home that night... and that probably keeps me out of trouble. I don't try to win trophies at HPDE events either

I live in the city, so there is zero chance of having a trailer and tow vehicle. I need something that I can drive to and from events and leave in a track-ready condition 6 months per year.

[ewalberg]

I would also wouldn't worry about getting a car with a hardtop becuase they can be had for sale, and many groups DO let you run with just the soft top or even no top because the car is a targa with a full roll structure already. I'm not saying it's the safest, but it seems to be less often required to have a hard top than more often required.

I would argue one of the first upgrades would be to try and source some new rims... 15/16's for the car is the way to go i think. it comes stock with 16/17's. Rota Slipstreams are a good/cheap option.

Then you can run the Toyo RA-1's which everyone agrees last longer than any other decent track tire out there and are stickier than many, they're very predictable, and cost less since the smaller rims = cheaper tires, and weight saved. It'll also ride nicer around town since you get a little extra side-wall from it. it's a quadruple win.

if you're driving it all year round you may want to consider dedicated winter tires for the winter months.... it's light weight means that it's pretty easy to hydroplane if you don't get tires with LOTS of clearance for water, and if you're in the snow in the thing, you'll not continue to be a car on the road which can outmaneuver other cars instead of having to baby it on mediocre tires.

pads and rotors may also be cheaper than the subie too so they're last longer and cost less.

[briancl]

Originally Posted by ewalberg

I would also wouldn't worry about getting a car with a hardtop becuase they can be had for sale, and many groups DO let you run with just the soft top or even no top because the car is a targa with a full roll structure already. I'm not saying it's the safest, but it seems to be less often required to have a hard top than more often required.

I would argue one of the first upgrades would be to try and source some new rims... 15/16's for the car is the way to go i think. it comes stock with 16/17's. Rota Slipstreams are a good/cheap option.

Then you can run the Toyo RA-1's which everyone agrees last longer than any other decent track tire out there and are stickier than many, they're very predictable, and cost less since the smaller rims = cheaper tires, and weight saved. It'll also ride nicer around town since you get a little extra side-wall from it. it's a quadruple win.

if you're driving it all year round you may want to consider dedicated winter tires for the winter months.... it's light weight means that it's pretty easy to hydroplane if you don't get tires with LOTS of clearance for water, and if you're in the snow in the thing, you'll not continue to be a car on the road which can outmaneuver other cars instead of having to baby it on mediocre tires.

pads and rotors may also be cheaper than the subie too so they're last longer and cost less.

So people are going with a smaller wheel and larger sidewall tire for the track? Is this for performance reasons, i.e., lighter weight wheels out perform lower profile tires?

What size tire/wheel is preferred for track duty? I see a lot of combinations from different option packages... everything from 5.5 to 7" fronts. In my world, the wider, the better... does that still hold true?

[Zinhead]

Originally Posted by briancl

Are you the guy who talked to me for a while about the Elise?

Yes. I have the green Exige.

Originally Posted by briancl

So an 05 or 06 Elise will have either stock or Sport Pack (aka LSS) suspension, right? A Track Pack was not offered during those years, but could have been added separately. From what I am seeing, it might be easier to just buy a stock or Sport Pack 05/06 Elise and add the toe link brace and harness bar. Suspension I can deal with later.

Lotus shifted the content of the track and sports pack over the years. These were pricey options when new, but on the used market I don't think they command much of a premium. If you wait, you can find the car with the desired options for not much more than one without. A car will either have the Base suspension or the Sport suspension (LSS). Some LSS cars also have the Track Pack which was definately an option in 2006.

Originally Posted by briancl

Does any Elise hardtop fit, or do I need a specific one per color/year? All Exiges come with better seats? Do any of the Elises come with those seats as an option? What is better about them? Fit, bolstering, slotted for submarine belt?

Any hardtop will fit. However, Lotus changed thier colors from year to year so finding one that matches your particular car can take a while. As another poster mentioned, most groups will let you run without a hardtop, but the hardtop doesn't seem to add much to the price of the car so you might as well get one with the car in the correct color.

The Exige seats have slightly deeper bolsters. They also have the shoulder slots for the harness. You can add shoulder slots to an Elise seat but then you invite the wrath of Fishguy (Sector 111 Elise seat grommets revisited). None of the stock Lotus seats have slots for fifth and sixth points although the seats have a ready-made provisions for it. Sector 111 sells a kits for installing the fifth and sixth points.

sys.6.pack - Seat Security and 6 Point Harness Attachment for your Lotus Elise and Exige - Sector111
5th Point Seat Grommet for seats

Originally Posted by briancl

Subarus have oil cavitation problems, too, so I am familiar with oil problems. I like safety and reliability, so I may have to look into that. I'll stay with street tires for a while, though, so maybe it will not be a priority until I move up to racing compounds.

With the Lotus, oil starvation only comes into play in sustained high-G turns with sticky tires. The Carousel at Road America comes into mind. The fuel starvation issue is primarily on the supercharged engines. Just keep the gas tank above 1/2 and you will be fine. As for driving the car to the track, that is what I do with my Exige on Toyo R-888's. If it is raining, I have a set of Goodyear street tires that also work as a rain tire.