Another example of why you need a HANS device

[Randy Chase]

As posted on the Noble forums

Originally Posted by cutaway

My friend totalled his 240sx at this years hyperfest.

He had been borrowing my trackmate. Based on reviewing the data he told me he could carry more speed through turn four. The he went back to the track with the resolve that he was going to get his speed up through turn 4. He was going about a 105 through the turn when he lifted...

He is so lucky - he didn't have a roll cage or a harness. His neck padding came in handy though. He walked away with a bruised ego...

I think it is pretty cool that he posted the video so that we could learn from his mistake.

[Tracktimeplz]

Just that little blip of lift at that speed can cause alot of turbulence. Glad he is ok

[powerbookguy]

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

As posted on the Noble forums

man, it really does not take much to go off at speed does it.

not to hijack but was it proper safety for the driver to exit the car having rolled it?

[mrluky]

Well, he was right in that it could be taken at that speed. And it is a great example of what not to do with throttle in a high speed near limits corner.

I applaud the guy for actually trying to do what could have been, and nearly was, possible, and posting about his error.

Glad he is alright.

[John]

Yes, T4 at Summit is one you don't lift at as you're full throttle in 4th there coming down the hill. The great thing about that turn is that there's a decent amount of camber - however, if you go too far to the left you're going to get in the marbles. I can guarantee you that the 105 speed is exaggerated, but nonetheless, you're cooking there.

[Phantom]

...HELLO REALITY!

Videos like this remind me how easily and quickly things can go wrong on the track-

Thanks you Randy (and your friend) for sharing the video-

[RichS]

Originally Posted by powerbookguy

Not to hijack but was it proper safety for the driver to exit the car having rolled it?

I'd say no (unless he thought the car was on fire or was about to catch on fire [maybe he smelled leaking gas or something?]). There are still cars driving by. The chances of one of those cars staring at this wreck is VERY HIGH and as we all know, your car tends to go where you look. By leaving the relative safety of his car the driver turned himself into a target. Just my humble opinion.

[John]

Originally Posted by RichS

I'd say no (unless he thought the car was on fire or was about to catch on fire [maybe he smelled leaking gas or something?]). There are still cars driving by. The chances of one of those cars staring at this wreck is VERY HIGH and as we all know, your car tends to go where you look. By leaving the relative safety of his car the driver turned himself into a target. Just my humble opinion.

You're right, he shouldn't have gotten out of the car, however, one thing that NASA Mid-Atlantic region does a decent job of is running red flag drills in HPDEs. Once the car went tumbling, all activity on the track was immediately halted.

[SteveLevin]

I'd say it is much more an example of why you shouldn't push to the limits in cars that aren't race-prepped than it is about a HANS.

Not that I'm saying a HANS is a bad thing -- I'm not.

Steve

[dmh]

I have hundreds and hundreds of race laps at Summit Point. We pass both high and low in corner 4 or use it as a setup corner for turn 5. You need to be able to breathe the throttle at a moments notice and still be in control. It's really just like any other corner: a driver in control ought to be able to lift, brake, and/or accelerate pretty much at any time and/or place. (Except of course if you are in a 911!) It happens all the time while racing, e.g., passing, getting passed, accident avoidance.

With no one in front of him the driver in the video should have been accerating right up to the point you slam on the brakes and throw it into the "throw-away" corner. It was simply a rookie mistake that he was nice enough to share with us for educational purposes. Glad he was ok.

[powerbookguy]

Originally Posted by RichS

I'd say no (unless he thought the car was on fire or was about to catch on fire [maybe he smelled leaking gas or something?]). There are still cars driving by. The chances of one of those cars staring at this wreck is VERY HIGH and as we all know, your car tends to go where you look. By leaving the relative safety of his car the driver turned himself into a target. Just my humble opinion.

that was my call as well, though i imagine the desire to unbelt and get out when you are hanging upside down would be tempting.

[RichS]

Originally Posted by John

Once the car went tumbling, all activity on the track was immediately halted.

Sure it was. However, you can still hear cars driving by as he is climbing out of the car.

It's amazing how long 'immediately halted' takes to happen. So while yes, I'm sure the corner workers 'immediately' threw red flags, it sometimes takes drivers time to respond to those flags. I've seen drivers in HPDE4 'miss' red flags. If a driver misses a red flag it can sometimes take quite a while to get to the next flag station. If the flag the driver just missed was right before the accident you could have someone coming at you at '105 MPH'.

The only time I'd EVER get out of a car (even if it is upside down) is when a corner worker (or the medical team) told me to.

[ZJChaser]

Originally Posted by RichS

Sure it was. However, you can still hear cars driving by as he is climbing out of the car.

It's amazing how long 'immediately halted' takes to happen. So while yes, I'm sure the corner workers 'immediately' threw red flags, it sometimes takes drivers time to respond to those flags. I've seen drivers in HPDE4 'miss' red flags. If a driver misses a red flag it can sometimes take quite a while to get to the next flag station. If the flag the driver just missed was right before the accident you could have someone coming at you at '105 MPH'.

The only time I'd EVER get out of a car (even if it is upside down) is when a corner worker (or the medical team) told me to.

HAve to remember that he didn't have harnesses and he was upside down. He couldn't just "hang" there in the car. He was having to hold him self up with his arms or rest his head on the roof upside down. I think getting hit while like that would have been VERY bad. If he would have unclipped his belt so he wasn't resting on his head against the roof then he would have just been a ragdoll inside the if it was to get hit. No real good option there in my mind.

[fishguy]

I completely agree with not getting out of the car.
the thing you need to remember is adrenaline is pumping when you take a big hit like that, not to mention being upside down

did you see the force of the impact? imagine if that was a frontal impact, yes you need a HANS, that little POS doughnut ring he was wearing is only a placebo, it might reduce lateral strain on your neck when you are driving, but it not going to help you in an impact.


also another reason that the "i just do HPDE, or time trials, so i dont need a fully race prepped car" is such a reflection of ignorance or stupidity by the person saying it.

I understand its a "business decsion" to allow cars out on the track in hpde
3-4 w/ out fully race prepped gear, but IMO, its a poor one.

if it makes it so guys cannot afford to then track their cars because the safety gear is not affordable, then tough luck, tracking cars is not cheap.

I am biased as i do run the race group, but its also because i always see the stupidest things happen in HPDE, which is really just racing w/o an organized start at the levels 3-4 anyway.

[fishguy]

Originally Posted by ZJChaser

HAve to remember that he didn't have harnesses and he was upside down. He couldn't just "hang" there in the car. He was having to hold him self up with his arms or rest his head on the roof upside down. I think getting hit while like that would have been VERY bad. If he would have unclipped his belt so he wasn't resting on his head against the roof then he would have just been a ragdoll inside the if it was to get hit. No real good option there in my mind.

this is where i disagree fully. his option was, and should be to be on the track with a fully prepped car with cage and harness/hans BEFORE going out on the track reguardless of what the track organizers say is needed /not needed.

I am glad the guy is OK...............if he was in a noble, that just cost a ton of money in damage to the car.
another reason why a spec miata, or a cheap formula car is a great choice.
one you can just abandon at the track, the other is designed to be repaired easily.
Noble/Elise isnt either of the above, but it will be a big hit financially when you ding it.
be safe.
GET THE HANS, and the rest of the stuff before you wad the car, not after.
learn from this video.

[ZJChaser]

Originally Posted by fishguy

this is where i disagree fully. his option was, and should be to be on the track with a fully prepped car with cage and harness/hans BEFORE going out on the track reguardless of what the track organizers say is needed /not needed.

I am glad the guy is OK...............if he was in a noble, that just cost a ton of money in damage to the car.
another reason why a spec miata, or a cheap formula car is a great choice.
one you can just abandon at the track, the other is designed to be repaired easily.
Noble/Elise isnt either of the above, but it will be a big hit financially when you ding it.
be safe.
GET THE HANS, and the rest of the stuff before you wad the car, not after.
learn from this video.

I agreee fully but in that situation that he was already in its too late to opt for the fully prepared race car......ending with that I bow out of the safety debate

[RichS]

Hey I definitely agree that his adrenaline was pumping and that he was hanging upside down and supporting himself with his arms. I don't fault him for wanting to get out of the car. If a car hit his car when he was in that position his chances of serious injury were VERY high if the hitting car was traveling at a high rate of speed.

That said, given the choice of being hit in a car and being hit while running across a field... I'm going with getting hit while in a car. At least there is SOME chance that the car might protect me. When I'm running across the field there is NOTHING that will protect me from the car.

Let's say that the car that is going to hit you is only going 15 MPH when it hits the damaged car. There is actually a pretty good chance that the car will help rather than hurt you. However getting hit by a car at 15 MPH when standing (or running) across a field will probably do much more damage to you.

There is always some who will say things like "Well, I might bounce off the car that is hitting me and only get thrown, but when I'm hanging upside down in my car I'll be trapped inside." And they may be right. BUT since you NEVER know what is going to happen, you should ALWAYS default to staying inside the car unless it is on fire. To me there is no 'it depends'.

I'd like to think that in this guy's situation I would have climbed down from the seat and then laid down on the roof of the car and waited for someone to tell me to get out of the car.

[Lotus-Position]

I run with a HANS, 6pt harness, and Reverie seat all properly installed and fitted. No cage (yet). These were my first mods to the car and, along with the RTD brace, the only major mods I've done so far.

Question: How effective would the HANS have been in this particular case? It is most effective for head-on impacts, much less so for off-axis impacts like this one (based on HANS test data). In fact wasn't the first impact made going backwards in this case? Seems like head bolsters on the seat and or nets would have helped, but the HANS not so much. Thoughts?

Regarding protection in the car after impact: wouldn't harness belts be stretched out enough that they wouldn't offer much more protection than stock belts? Not saying you should or shouldn't exit (sounds like you shouldn't from the experienced racers on the thread).

I was thinking cage/nets as my next mod, but maybe just picking up a spec miata might be a better way to go... per above suggestion. Or maybe just renting a spec racer Ford?

[SteveLevin]

When it comes to being on the track, it's easy to forget how fast in real time things happen, and that often you just do the wrong thing. Or even just slightly "less than ideal." Here's an example of something that happened to me this past weekend:



A more experienced driver looked at the video and said "you were doomed as soon as you made the first correction. You should have just tried to go off and get the car slowed down from that point" (rather than try and catch it).

I suppose eventually I'll be that Zen with the car. But when you put a car on the edge, even with a lot of practice and instruction, still, when things happen you may make the wrong choice.

Steve

[Lotus-Position]

hummm, interesting... It looks like you actually did catch it when it first got loose.

This thread and threads like it are invaluable for us relative newbies.