Another lesson in the value of safety equipment - LotusTalk

Randy Chase · 07-30-2008, 10:32 PM

Noble M400 leaves the VIR track at high speed, right into the tire wall.

YouTube - Noble M400 Crash at VIR

Derek said telemetry indicated 149mph when he left the track. Only injury was a contusion to his hand when a bit of the body work came into the cabin through the window. Car was actually fine and will be fixed up.

Mr.C · 07-30-2008, 10:39 PM

Uh...

Looks like the guy he was trying to pass didn't even know he was there and just closed the hole on him...

One more reason to always check your mirrors and be aware of what's going on around / behind you...

Darth G-F · 07-31-2008, 05:08 AM

Looks to me like the Noble driver is 100% at fault. He basically stays in the blind spot of the other car for quite a while. Doesn't have enough to pass before turn in. Other car turned in on him. Boom.

The car being passed had the line, he has priority on the line. When strapped to his seat he probably can't see very well in the blind spot. For a pass to be safe, you have to have your nose equal with the nose of the car you're trying to pass before turn in. If you have your nose equal with the other car's driver, he "should" be seeing you. But it is obviously not as safe and you need to thrust this other driver on his skills and vision.

Remember some driver are so focused on the track ahead they virtually forget of any other cars. Glad to hear both car and driver will live to race another day.

jim-clayton · 07-31-2008, 05:40 AM

The hand looks painful.

ZTEC · 07-31-2008, 05:49 AM

That was pretty violent, The other car left the track as well - At that speed you are just along for the ride.

John · 07-31-2008, 06:32 AM

149 going into the esses? That's really fast for there - really really fast. Especially considering his point of entry was far from optimal for that segment... glad he was OK...

Yeti · 07-31-2008, 08:36 AM

What kind of event were they running? I assume it was a race and not a track day event.

SteveLevin · 07-31-2008, 08:47 AM

In SCCA rules, the Stocker, not the Noble, was at fault as it denied the Noble racing room. I can't speak to all club rules, although I think they are generally similar in that you must leave room for someone if they are alongside you (the proverbial "the width of your car and a piece of paper").

Blind spot is not an excuse -- as a driver you know that Noble's around, and if he's not in your mirrors, then he's alongside you.

All that said, the Noble driver put himself in a bad spot. Sometimes you need to concede the corner earlier and set them up for the next corner.

If this wasn't a race...then the Noble driver was amazingly silly for getting into that spot, and the situation proves my personal adage that track days with "open" passing are the same as racing and should always be treated as such.

Steve

Randy Chase · 07-31-2008, 09:01 AM

The Noble driver admits fault as his mistake...though it would seem shared a bit.

Original thread
VIDEO- Noble Crash at VIR this past Saturday - Noble Rossion Forums

fitfan · 07-31-2008, 09:17 AM

that is really fast out of the bridge... looks like he was gaining fast out of 5 and 6 (my favorite place to go surveying) but then got out dragged on the straight to the bridge, underestimated the pass...

thats racing! - at least that kinda of a pass incident should not happen on a track day, so i assume it was a race event. there are some pretty good places to pass o nthe full course, people who race there can comment further - but i would guess after the bridge and into the esses is not one of them. (but i think he thought he would make the pass before the bridge, but just ran out of hp)

Glad he was ok!!! that was quite frigtning!!!

Darth G-F · 07-31-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveLevin

In SCCA rules, the Stocker, not the Noble, was at fault as it denied the Noble racing room. I can't speak to all club rules, although I think they are generally similar in that you must leave room for someone if they are alongside you (the proverbial "the width of your car and a piece of paper").

Blind spot is not an excuse -- as a driver you know that Noble's around, and if he's not in your mirrors, then he's alongside you.

Not sure about SCCA rules, but usually leaving room is when you exit a turn, you have to leave room for the other car. Some driver will go all the way to the exit curb forcing the other car to leave the track or brake.

In this case, the guy dove inside right at turn in. The car in front had the racing line and had all the rights, imho, to turn in. The Noble driver made a mistake. Unless the car in front knew the Noble was there and delibaretly ram him. That's why you usually have to put the nose alongside the other car's driver "before turn in" to safely claim the racing line as yours.

Mr. Know · 07-31-2008, 12:59 PM

From the comments in the Noble forum, it appears it was a race, not a track day.

davecarama · 07-31-2008, 01:07 PM

Ho
Ly
Crap!

Nightmares!

Rod

Don't do that when you visit in a few weeks. It is like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters... "It would be bad"

plastique999 · 07-31-2008, 01:56 PM

was this w2w?

SteveLevin · 07-31-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth G-F

Not sure about SCCA rules, but usually leaving room is when you exit a turn, you have to leave room for the other car. Some driver will go all the way to the exit curb forcing the other car to leave the track or brake.

In this case, the guy dove inside right at turn in. The car in front had the racing line and had all the rights, imho, to turn in. The Noble driver made a mistake. Unless the car in front knew the Noble was there and delibaretly ram him. That's why you usually have to put the nose alongside the other car's driver "before turn in" to safely claim the racing line as yours.

For SCCA, it's much tighter than that. If I have even 1" of my car in overlap, then you must give me room all the way through. Again, the old adage is that if someone's been close to you and you suddenly can't see them -- they are alongside you. You touch, and you'll be chatting with a steward in impound. In this clip you can see how on the second lap I have minor contact with someone (not my fault) -- it wasn't a big deal but we did chat about it post race.

Steve

fitfan · 07-31-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davecarama

Ho
Ly
Crap!

Nightmares!

Rod

Don't do that when you visit in a few weeks. It is like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters... "It would be bad"

I will do my best to keep my Sh!L in my britches

John · 07-31-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveLevin

In SCCA rules, the Stocker, not the Noble, was at fault as it denied the Noble racing room. I can't speak to all club rules, although I think they are generally similar in that you must leave room for someone if they are alongside you (the proverbial "the width of your car and a piece of paper").

I'm pretty sure the review committee would find the Noble at fault - his attempt to pass there is pretty arrogant (especially considering the "line" through the high-speed esses)... he really positioned himself in the wrong spot. Damn I miss that track though...

SteveLevin · 07-31-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

I'm pretty sure the review committee would find the Noble at fault - his attempt to pass there is pretty arrogant (especially considering the "line" through the high-speed esses)... he really positioned himself in the wrong spot. Damn I miss that track though...

He put himself on the inside for that entry. You don't get much better than that. I would have made the exact same move and not expected to get chopped in an SCCA event. But I don't know what sanction they were racing under.

Steve

John · 07-31-2008, 06:17 PM

Inside at the entry to a set of esses (especially those at VIR) is not the same as the inside to most other turns. I am not convinced the Noble would have been able to hold it even if the stock car wasn't there...

SteveLevin · 08-01-2008, 09:00 AM

What would you say about the esses at Infineon then? Hopefully not that THEY can't be done side by side, because I've seen it done. I doubt the esses at VIR are any different.

Regardless, the turning down onto someone is deeply uncool for club racing. Far more uncool that the poor judgement of being there, because it indicates not being aware of what's going on.

Steve

07-30-2008, 10:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mr.C German Reimport Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Stuttgart, Germany Posts: 622	Uh... Looks like the guy he was trying to pass didn't even know he was there and just closed the hole on him... One more reason to always check your mirrors and be aware of what's going on around / behind you... __________________ If I die, my biggest fear is that my wife sells all my toys for the price I told her I bought them for...

07-31-2008, 05:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
Darth G-F Liberté! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,442	Looks to me like the Noble driver is 100% at fault. He basically stays in the blind spot of the other car for quite a while. Doesn't have enough to pass before turn in. Other car turned in on him. Boom. The car being passed had the line, he has priority on the line. When strapped to his seat he probably can't see very well in the blind spot. For a pass to be safe, you have to have your nose equal with the nose of the car you're trying to pass before turn in. If you have your nose equal with the other car's driver, he "should" be seeing you. But it is obviously not as safe and you need to thrust this other driver on his skills and vision. Remember some driver are so focused on the track ahead they virtually forget of any other cars. Glad to hear both car and driver will live to race another day. __________________ 2006 Ronin Supercharged Lotus Elise 2008 BMW 328Xi

07-31-2008, 05:40 AM	#4 (permalink)
jim-clayton Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida Posts: 1,632	The hand looks painful. __________________ 2005 Elise Storm Titanium

07-31-2008, 05:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
ZTEC Third Eye Open Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 1,737 Images: 3	That was pretty violent, The other car left the track as well - At that speed you are just along for the ride. __________________ GO: Vision Function Stage II Intercooled Bliss with Charlie's ECU magic and Ronin's Tenacity! STOP: DBA 4000's, Porterfield R4! TURN: Nitron S/A's Toyo RA1's 225/245 on Rota's! Last edited by ZTEC : 07-31-2008 at 06:51 AM.

07-31-2008, 06:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
John :panic: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,795	149 going into the esses? That's really fast for there - really really fast. Especially considering his point of entry was far from optimal for that segment... glad he was OK... __________________ 05 "Elixige" w/ Stuff - FOR SALE 07 Mazda 3S - 4-wheeled commuter 99 YZF-600R - 2-wheeled commuter

07-31-2008, 08:36 AM	#7 (permalink)
Yeti Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Harrisburg, PA Posts: 1,038	What kind of event were they running? I assume it was a race and not a track day event.

07-31-2008, 08:47 AM	#8 (permalink)
SteveLevin Master of Disaster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sunnyvale, CA Posts: 468	In SCCA rules, the Stocker, not the Noble, was at fault as it denied the Noble racing room. I can't speak to all club rules, although I think they are generally similar in that you must leave room for someone if they are alongside you (the proverbial "the width of your car and a piece of paper"). Blind spot is not an excuse -- as a driver you know that Noble's around, and if he's not in your mirrors, then he's alongside you. All that said, the Noble driver put himself in a bad spot. Sometimes you need to concede the corner earlier and set them up for the next corner. If this wasn't a race...then the Noble driver was amazingly silly for getting into that spot, and the situation proves my personal adage that track days with "open" passing are the same as racing and should always be treated as such. Steve

07-31-2008, 09:01 AM	#9 (permalink)
Randy Chase Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Diego and where ever the roads lead Posts: 28,174 Images: 761	The Noble driver admits fault as his mistake...though it would seem shared a bit. Original thread VIDEO- Noble Crash at VIR this past Saturday - Noble Rossion Forums __________________ * V E R I T A S * A E Q U I T A S * No Longer the ADMIN here, please do not PM me asking for help. Thanks! 2006 Noble M400. Getrag tranny, Quaiffe LSD, Hinged clams. Duratec dual turbo V6. Hoosier 315-18 tires. 2350 pounds. Over 500hp. Track weapon. 2009 Rossion Q1. Monaco Orange. Wing. Black leather/Alcantara with orange stitching. The street car. In build: 2009 Toniq R (300whp? 1100 pounds?). Chrome Orange. Lexus GX-470 tow vehicle.

07-31-2008, 09:17 AM	#10 (permalink)
fitfan Regurgitated User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Diego! Posts: 4,092	that is really fast out of the bridge... looks like he was gaining fast out of 5 and 6 (my favorite place to go surveying) but then got out dragged on the straight to the bridge, underestimated the pass... thats racing! - at least that kinda of a pass incident should not happen on a track day, so i assume it was a race event. there are some pretty good places to pass o nthe full course, people who race there can comment further - but i would guess after the bridge and into the esses is not one of them. (but i think he thought he would make the pass before the bridge, but just ran out of hp) Glad he was ok!!! that was quite frigtning!!! __________________ Driving it around!

07-31-2008, 12:59 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mr. Know British by extrapolation Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Marin, California Posts: 3,350 Images: 6	From the comments in the Noble forum, it appears it was a race, not a track day. __________________ 07 Magnetic Blue Exige S Join the Blue Lotus Team on Facebook.

07-31-2008, 01:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
davecarama Driving it every day! Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 850	Ho Ly Crap! Nightmares! Rod Don't do that when you visit in a few weeks. It is like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters... "It would be bad" __________________ Vision without execution is a hallucination.

07-31-2008, 01:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
plastique999 Form and Function Join Date: May 2008 Location: Alta Loma, CA Posts: 3,046	was this w2w? __________________ www.FaceNBody.com 2005 Lotus Elise: 2bular decat\GT3 exhaust,HID's,turn signal&rear fins delete, CFside scoops, CFbinnacle,CFcenter console,Zoom CF mirror,APR Aero kit,CF 5-elem. diffuser,Exige mesh,Ohlins DA,RTD brace,RAC 'lites,Toyo R888's,HawkHT10's,CO painted calipers,SS lines,Reverie XC CF seat,Reverie CF steering wheel,Schroth Profi II 6 pt harness,shifter re-Enforcer,Manly mounts, Accusump,Moroso pan,BWR key to BWR S/C! Spec Racer Ford #237

07-31-2008, 06:17 PM	#19 (permalink)
John :panic: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,795	Inside at the entry to a set of esses (especially those at VIR) is not the same as the inside to most other turns. I am not convinced the Noble would have been able to hold it even if the stock car wasn't there... __________________ 05 "Elixige" w/ Stuff - FOR SALE 07 Mazda 3S - 4-wheeled commuter 99 YZF-600R - 2-wheeled commuter

08-01-2008, 09:00 AM	#20 (permalink)
SteveLevin Master of Disaster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sunnyvale, CA Posts: 468	What would you say about the esses at Infineon then? Hopefully not that THEY can't be done side by side, because I've seen it done. I doubt the esses at VIR are any different. Regardless, the turning down onto someone is deeply uncool for club racing. Far more uncool that the poor judgement of being there, because it indicates not being aware of what's going on. Steve

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