$15K power challenge

[sleepless]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

No chance you can make 250 HP NA on 92 octane and stay emissions legal and do it for under $15K You need to set some realistic goals.

Noted. Those two items (92 octane and emission legal are more of a wish and possibly a deciding factor between NA vs. forced induction).

[abefroeman]

is this whp or crank?

If it is crank hp, then:
a Tripoint supercharger
air to water intercooler (that I am sure is/will be available soon)
cams
tune

[scottyb]

It seems that only Tripoint has a true ECU solution. If you do go FF i would definitely recommend using their ECU solution. Otherwise the ECU will adapt and the piggyback solutions are really only temporary. I know a few FF unichip guys will jump on me, but I have yet to see any proof that the unichip can keep up with the 05 ECU.

[fzust]

Originally Posted by sleepless

I suppose I should spend some of that $15K to fly somewhere to test drive the FF275. However, FF says that they recommend their FF380 for track use because the motor is built up. I believe they charge $25K for that option.

Regarding smog/emissions legality... Good question. I could probably give that up since my Elise is 99% track use. Not sure about my friend's Exige. So, for now, let's just say it has to pass emissions testing outside of California and any other superstrict states. In Washington, it just needs to have an OBDII port that says all is cool

I split the difference. I have the 275 with the accusump and moroso oilpan. I believe conservative fueling and heat control will provide a reliable track toy.

[Bruce]

Originally Posted by fzust

I split the difference. I have the 275 with the accusump and moroso oilpan. I believe conservative fueling and heat control will provide a reliable track toy.

I thought you had a deposit on the 280RR?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Stan

Less lag than stock? Please explain!

I think he means that you really need to keep the revs up and be on the second cam for the real power of the NA 2ZZ. If you think about it, when you are at low rpms, it is similar to a turbo car at low rpms. This is how I took it.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by sleepless

I suppose I should spend some of that $15K to fly somewhere to test drive the FF275.

If you happen to be in Albuquerque, you can drive mine anytime. Also, if you are wondering about reliablility for a tracked car, here is a good thread discussing the reliablity of a ForcedFed Elise.

http://209.59.172.12/forums/showthread.php?t=20532

I do believe this one has the built motor, but this is probably a good idea with any type of forced induction with the 2ZZ and regular tracking.

Stephen

[Evl]

Originally Posted by 05EliseNM

I think he means that you really need to keep the revs up and be on the second cam for the real power of the NA 2ZZ. If you think about it, when you are at low rpms, it is similar to a turbo car at low rpms. This is how I took it.

Except that power output vs. throttle position and rpm is a constant function. With the turbo its throttle position, rpm, and time that determines power output.

[ChrisB]

Originally Posted by sleepless

I suppose I should spend some of that $15K to fly somewhere to test drive the FF275. However, FF says that they recommend their FF380 for track use because the motor is built up.

JPLotus has (had?) a ForcedFed 340 that he has for track use. You might ask him about his views on tracking a turbo'd Elise.

[cpforyou]

K20A Swap can be done with a few K20A swap kits out there. K20A motors can be made to 250HP easily (or should i say 230WHPish) with Hondata, and some minor headwork.

[Forcedfed]

We have the 340R which is a track set-up too, this is a super fast track car.

[fzust]

Originally Posted by Bruce

I thought you had a deposit on the 280RR?

That, my friend is a VERY INTERESTING story..... Soon when I am unburied from work, I will tell all.

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by Forcedfed

We have the 340R which is a track set-up too, this is a super fast track car.

Did you really name one of your kits 340R

This is a 340R


This is not

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Evl

Except that power output vs. throttle position and rpm is a constant function. With the turbo its throttle position, rpm, and time that determines power output.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mr. Technical. Of course it does not work the same, I just think this may be what he meant; and there is some similarity between some turbo motors vs. our NA motor, which can feel a little like a turbo kicking in when the second cam hits.

[fzust]

Exactly. The lotus is a gutless wonder down low. The power increases as RPM increases. My point is that the turbo is on full boost at 3000rpm, which one will NEVER see at the track if the car is driven properly. I am not suggesting there is no difference with an NA or SC car, but rather in the intended application it is really not an issue.

[pianomaniac]

Originally Posted by fzust

Exactly. The lotus is a gutless wonder down low. The power increases as RPM increases. My point is that the turbo is on full boost at 3000rpm, which one will NEVER see at the track if the car is driven properly. I am not suggesting there is no difference with an NA or SC car, but rather in the intended application it is really not an issue.

"Gutless wonder"? You are sounding like Dickedup.

I'm pretty certain that my NA Elise will take my Audi S4 V8 off the line and for the first 50 feet or so.

[Buz]

The rotary sounds good, very light. I will bet someone fits a 3.6 liter narrow angle VWAG V-6 before too long. 280hp and torque bone stock. The original VR6 was designed to fit in a 4 cylinder engine bay. Until then I think Boosted 2.0 is on to something with the Celica GTS instrument cluster. Doesn't that solve the biggest ecu obstacle for the 2zz?

[sleepless]

Regarding not liking turbos: What I have experienced is that throttle finesse is hard with a turbo because lag happens anytime time you are off the throttle.

Most people focus on the lag from startup until the turbo spools up. This doesn't bother so much, because as others have pointed out, our cammy motor is actually worse than any turbo I've driven in its power curve, although it does not bother me because at the track I've come to be quite good at keeping it in the second cam.

What I care about is the throttle response in say mid turn when you sometime breathe off the throttle and then back on after the car rotates. My 993 Turbo is okay in this regard, but the turbos do spool up and I have to watch out for oversteer when that happens. This doesn't happen with an NA motor, nor with a supercharged motor.

So, the only way I'd buy a turbo track car is if I could test drive it on a track; I bet the number of people offering to let me drive the FF car has just seriously diminished

So far, it seems the K20 motor transplant comes the closest to my requirements. With a Tri-Point supercharge in a close second place (well, probably a tie if you consider the pain in the but factor of do an engine transplant vs. a supercharger/intercooler installation).

[MitchT]

I agree on the turbo issue, you need instant throttle and it is not there, I had this issue with my 93 tt rx-7, good power when your in the boost, but on and off, and I hate guessing mid-corner. Just curious, this power is needed to stop gettin pasted by *@#$$ in v-8s who can not drive too well but have 400hp. I have this issue, they can't hang in the turns but on power straights pass me and it eats at me to no end. Looks like tripoint and a intercooler on you roof will solve the problem.

[choi0706]

Originally Posted by Buz

The rotary sounds good, very light. I will bet someone fits a 3.6 liter narrow angle VWAG V-6 before too long. 280hp and torque bone stock. The original VR6 was designed to fit in a 4 cylinder engine bay. Until then I think Boosted 2.0 is on to something with the Celica GTS instrument cluster. Doesn't that solve the biggest ecu obstacle for the 2zz?

I sent Hondata an email about their "box" for the cluster.. they wouldn't budge on producing a universal one but simply replied "give us a call when you have a honda engine".. they think their "box" will sell more for honda engine conversions than universal applications for any aftermarket ecu..