Another Honda Powered Lotus

[6i9]

Originally Posted by addertooth

I am still trying to wrap my head around the "why" of the K20 swaps. Similar numbers can be achieved (Hp and torque) with a built 2zz engine and a TVS supercharger. An uprated transmission does make sense. If I am going to go through the challenge of an engine swap, I will likely wait until Monkey Wrench puts their finishing touch on the V6 swap kit they are working on. Or even better, pioneer the hayabusa v8 with 400 plus HP (NA, more supercharged) and a 10500 rpm redline.

[me73]

Originally Posted by dstevens

I'd dispute that the numbers are the same - my stock K24 with old M62 makes 270 lbft torque. With a TVS, who knows?
The Honda swap is lighter, stronger, more powerful & more reliable than the 2ZZ with better aftermarket support and availability of parts. Also consider the crank centreline moves down 2 inches and forward another 2-1/2 inches, and the throttle response is better, and the fuel economy is better, the cams don't wear out etc.

But aside from that, there's no reason to swap?

How much lighter is the k24 than the 2zz?

[ageshelin]

The Honda 2l K motor is very well developed and supported. I do not know if it is that much lighter than the Toyota/Yamaha motor. Some reports around this site quote either 15 pounds less or 20 pounds more....

Immitation is the best form of flattery and the Toyota motor is a bit of a copy and a response to the K20.

There are various 'formula' classes around the world where the K20 is spec'd. Honda tried to displace Ford in F2000, when Ford threatened to stop casting the old 2L blocks. Honda K motors are used in Midget racing. Look at 4piston, 400HP, naturally aspirated!! I would use that for a hell of a track car, although, personally, I like turbo motors.

So, cost-effective, reliable, powerful. The only disadvantage is that the Lotus did not come with it.

Anton

[mikelr]

Originally Posted by ageshelin

Immitation is the best form of flattery and the Toyota motor is a bit of a copy and a response to the K20.


Anton

As is the Honda a copy of the Rover K series...

[dstevens]

The 2zz was made to beat the b18c type r engine; it is nothing to the k20a. And if you think the k20a was a copy of the rover, you've been brainwashed by 'king k'.

[me73]

Originally Posted by dstevens

The 2zz was made to beat the b18c type r engine; it is nothing to the k20a. And if you think the k20a was a copy of the rover, you've been brainwashed by 'king k'.

You beat me to it. The B series Honda engines of the 90s were clearly the inspiration for the 2zz. Honda made 1.6, 1.7, and 1.8 liter engines with the v-tec technology heads developed first on the NSX. All with outstanding power/displacement and reliability. The 1.8L B-series Type-R engine is the one used by Sun International when they were importing the S1 into the states. The 1.7L in my Integra had 200,000 hard driven miles on it when I sold it and was still running strong.

[mikelr]

Originally Posted by dstevens

The 2zz was made to beat the b18c type r engine; it is nothing to the k20a. And if you think the k20a was a copy of the rover, you've been brainwashed by 'king k'.

I'm not saying it's an exact copy, Honda has taken the design further with roller cams and a stiffer block, but the overall engine architecture started with the Rover K series.
And although Honda has taken the design further it has also porked it up compared to the Rover. This is one of the main reasons S1 cars are so much lighter then S2 variants. The Rover K in my car weighs 300lbs fully dressed with transaxle,starter,alternator,exhaust header, etc... dripping fluids.

[dstevens]

How is the k20 a copy of the rover other than both have 4 cylinders and 16 valves?

For the couple of rover to k20a swaps I've been involved in the weight change is about 25 lbs.

[me73]

Originally Posted by dstevens

How is the k20 a copy of the rover other than both have 4 cylinders and 16 valves?

For the couple of rover to k20a swaps I've been involved in the weight change is about 25 lbs.

Just to clarify, the Rover engine to k20a swap was a reduction of 25lbs? How much of that was exhaust if any? The Rover is lighter than the 2zz, correct?

[aschen]

I dont know much about 4 cyl engine families, but 300 hp from a NA 4 cyl is beyond impressive. What makes the K series so great? Are there a few key features or is it a case of alll the details summing to a great package?

[mikelr]

Originally Posted by dstevens

How is the k20 a copy of the rover other than both have 4 cylinders and 16 valves?

For the couple of rover to k20a swaps I've been involved in the weight change is about 25 lbs.

I was talking about the overall engine architecture, the innovative "aluminium sandwich" design utilizing long head bolts that pass through the head, block, mid-block... Rover K was the first to do this.

It's OK to admit that Honda has stood on the shoulders of other engine manufacturers designs .

I'm sure with enough changing of wheels, exhaust and other deletion of parts you could get an S1 to a net +25 lbs over at completely stock K engined car..you only have to make up for 100 lbs or so.

I love how you Honda guys get so defensive of your brand..

[mikelr]

Originally Posted by aschen

I dont know much about 4 cyl engine families, but 300 hp from a NA 4 cyl is beyond impressive. What makes the K series so great? Are there a few key features or is it a case of alll the details summing to a great package?

This is a case of having all your ducks in a row... a great flowing cylinder head, properly designed intake and exhaust working in harmony with the right cam profiles and 9000 rpm (not to mention another 600cc of displacement).
I'm sure the 2ZZGE could make similar numbers with the same displacement and the right accoutrements.

[dstevens]

So calling me a fanboy is a valid counter to my argument?

Honda does not use the head bolt through to bearings, but you'd have to predate aero engines of the 30s to claim to be first with the idea. So exactly what did Honda copy from the rover k? Perhaps the plastic dowels and weak liners?

25 lbs referred to engine swap (engine, trans, exhaust, mounts etc) not other changes.

[Exiged]

Originally Posted by dstevens

So calling me a fanboy is a valid counter to my argument?

Honda does not use the head bolt through to bearings, but you'd have to predate aero engines of the 30s to claim to be first with the idea. So exactly what did Honda copy from the rover k? Perhaps the plastic dowels and weak liners?

25 lbs referred to engine swap (engine, trans, exhaust, mounts etc) not other changes.

DStevens is anything but a fan boy!


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[mattjk]

you guys do realize dstevens is the owner and brains behind Hondata?

[Exiged]

Originally Posted by mattjk

you guys do realize dstevens is the owner and brains behind Hondata?

Yep that's why he is no fan boy!!!!


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[aztec1382]

Fan boy hahaha


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[Aedo]

Originally Posted by me73

Just to clarify, the Rover engine to k20a swap was a reduction of 25lbs? How much of that was exhaust if any? The Rover is lighter than the 2zz, correct?

I always thought the K20 swap added weight to a Rover Elise (25lb seems a fair value)...

[me73]

Originally Posted by Aedo

I always thought the K20 swap added weight to a Rover Elise (25lb seems a fair value)...

The reduction includes exhaust. I suspect this is where the savings comes from.

[Exiged]

Originally Posted by addertooth

I am still trying to wrap my head around the "why" of the K20 swaps. Similar numbers can be achieved (Hp and torque) with a built 2zz engine and a TVS supercharger. An uprated transmission does make sense. If I am going to go through the challenge of an engine swap, I will likely wait until Monkey Wrench puts their finishing touch on the V6 swap kit they are working on. Or even better, pioneer the hayabusa v8 with 400 plus HP (NA, more supercharged) and a 10500 rpm redline.

Don't forget the lack of tranny options for the 2zz...

The only real solution is the mr2 5speed conversion or a quaife..run the stock tranny and let's see how it lasts with the 2zz-rev400. And unless you are running race fuel and a fully built motor you can forget 400whp out of a TVS-2zz. See Phil's car for mods and whip results.

My k20 is stock block, pocket port head and a c38-70 Rotrex and I'm at 400whp on pump fuel. That's with boost limited at 15psi and the vision function intercooler.

I am putting in GearX 1-6 close ratio forged chromoly gears in this winter and the tranny should be ready for some serious abuse.

That's why I went Honda!


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