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Old 11-18-2011, 06:00 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Anyone Running a Piper or MWR camshaft??

Has anyone run a Piper or MWR camshaft on a stock setup? I emailed Piper and they said it would be OK to use thier 285 camshaft on a stock setup. I am just not sure


Thanks for any input
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:37 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I have not heard good things about either. What are your goals here? Cheap NA power? No such thing w/ the 2ZZ.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The reason it's hard to get more NA power from the motor is because it's all ready a beast. It is just a 1.8L motor and makes 190hp all day long on 91 octane fuel... I digress

As far as the cams go on a stock car, stock tune, etc = not a great use of funds, IMO.

On the supercharged cars, we're doing some custom tunes for stage 3 cams on the stock ECU over the winter. We have been doing custom supercharged tunes on the 2s and 3s w/ the standalone for quite a long time. The best gains are with forced induction and the cams certainly help there.

From an NA standpoint and to really make an appreciable difference, you need cams, more compression, custom tuning, etc and that will turn a street motor into a race fuel only motor... Plus, I'm pretty sure we're (kold-fire USA/BOE) the only ones doing totally custom tuning on the stock ECU, and we have no plans to do a "big NA" build/tune for anyone anytime soon. There's just not enough demand for such a tune to dedicate the time to it. That means you're going to be confined to a standalone for engine management-- a great solution for some, but not others...

I have not degreed the MWR vs Piper Cams, but they're near identical. Both companies set the lobe centers to about the same as stock, so you can drop them into a stock tune and the car WILL RUN-- just not optimally for the cams. The MWR cams are running a tiny bit more lift as I recall. I think the duration is comparable across the two. Power output should be about the same.

We have Stage 3 MWRs in the race car (Still street legal). It drives and idles just fine. In fact, the idle is truly as smooth as stock at around 1,100 RPMs. You'd never know it has big cams in until your either pulling on a car you "shouldn't be" down the straight or until VVL kicks in. The induction noise generated by the big Stage 3s at VVL is almost defening. Absolultely insane-loud induction noise when compared to stock cams--- or anything else for that matter!!

There's a nickel or two from KS...

Best,

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Old 11-18-2011, 01:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Being that it sounded like the cams in the 2zz are a weak point, I was going to upgrade to a after market ones, now I think I should just best leave things the way they are.

Thanks so such for your info!! Robert
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Both the Piper and MWR stage 2 cams can be installed in a stock engine with upgraded valve springs. It's easy to install the upgraded valve springs with the engine in the car and cylinder head still installed- no major surgery required. They run fine on a stock tune and even better with a custom tune.

The MWR and Piper cams are pretty similar. We sized the small lobe on the MWR model slightly bigger so the Piper is a little stronger from 2-3k and the MWR cams are stronger from 4-6k where you really need it. Both cams work great with the stock ~6k VVL (NA) engagement point because the small lobe is so much stronger. You no longer go from nothing to soemthing at 6k so the jolt from the VVL is less noticeable.

The Stage 3 cams can be installed in a stock engine as well but they really only benefit those revving to at least 8800rpm.

The cams work great in NA and supercharged applications. Keep in mind with a supercharger that you'll need a smaller pulley to maintain the same boost level when you improve the engine's airflow characteristics. If you do cams and don't change pulley size you'll find very minimal performance gains since the supercharger is not trying to move any more air.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Bringing it back...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeywrench View Post
Both the Piper and MWR stage 2 cams can be installed in a stock engine with upgraded valve springs. It's easy to install the upgraded valve springs with the engine in the car and cylinder head still installed- no major surgery required. They run fine on a stock tune and even better with a custom tune.

The MWR and Piper cams are pretty similar. We sized the small lobe on the MWR model slightly bigger so the Piper is a little stronger from 2-3k and the MWR cams are stronger from 4-6k where you really need it. Both cams work great with the stock ~6k VVL (NA) engagement point because the small lobe is so much stronger. You no longer go from nothing to soemthing at 6k so the jolt from the VVL is less noticeable.

The Stage 3 cams can be installed in a stock engine as well but they really only benefit those revving to at least 8800rpm.

The cams work great in NA and supercharged applications. Keep in mind with a supercharger that you'll need a smaller pulley to maintain the same boost level when you improve the engine's airflow characteristics. If you do cams and don't change pulley size you'll find very minimal performance gains since the supercharger is not trying to move any more air.
Just going to ask straight away, what gains could I see just by dropping in the stage 2 cams with a completely stock car?

I see the Celica forums talking about 10 whp, which to me is pretty decent for our already light cars.
Hell with 175-185 whp and getting the car down around 1950 lbs Id be happy...

My total plans for the car power wise are:
Custom burns lightweight exhaust, decat, stage 2 cams, and a tune (was hoping for stock ecu reflash)
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If compleely stock you'd probably see a bit less than 10whp. Other bolt-ons like cold air intake and header are going to make a little more hp/$ on a stock engine. Once you've got the other mods and are moving more air the cams make better power.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:28 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by czero View Post
My total plans for the car power wise are:
Custom burns lightweight exhaust, decat, stage 2 cams, and a tune (was hoping for stock ecu reflash)
I know it may not be what you want to hear, but you would be way better off spending $3700 and getting a basic supercharger kit. It will bolt right on to a completely stock engine and will give AT LEAST double the power you would get from all those bolt on and ECU tuning. And that would be on stock exhuast and everything.


Sector111 Katana2 Supercharger for the Lotus Elise and Exige

If theres anything I've learned over the years is that NA on a budget is just not the way to go on a 4 cylinder. If you go NA you have to go big. The only draw is that you *can* do it incrementaly, where as forced induction requires all the cost at once.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:06 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Has anyone compared wear of the Piper/MWR cams vs OEM?

Having just discovered the dreaded intake cam wear on my '06 I'm wondering if I'd be a fool to slap another OEM cam in. (I'm not really looking for a performance boost, though I certainly wouldn't mind one -assuming I'd do springs as well).

The aftermarket cams seem to be 6-7x the $ of OEM though , so it's a big differential in spend.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I have the Piper Stage 2 Cams running in my car. Big difference. Take a look at the Dyno I posted on Spyderchat.

Triz's 2zz Swap - Page 6
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:11 AM   #11 (permalink)
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damn that's amazing difference between your car and stock elise. Almost same power as Exige 220S.

Always thought about changing the cams, would rather do it vs. a pulley, but a lot more work to install and remove than a pulley. Especially if you need to upgrade injectors. Don't want to do that.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:42 AM   #12 (permalink)
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My injector duty cycles were at 91% so we switched to the Lotus 440cc injectors and now there is plenty room. Injectors are pretty easy to switch out as I'm pretty sure your setup is identical to the MR-S. I am definitely pleased with the results how it wakes up the lower end. More impressed that I can hit "lift" at 4k RPMs.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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IIRC, the stage 2 cams help the low end, but sacrifice the top end power?
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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+1 on the MWR stage 3s we run on our XP car. Ultimately if you are going to get a S/C anyway, they will add power before and after. As Kenny Duttweiler or Corky Bell will tell you a better NA setup will generally give you more Forced Induction performance. Because of the low cam and high cam, the car idles and runs like stock. The only difference is on the dyno and seat of the pants!
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:02 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Has anyone compared wear of the Piper/MWR cams vs OEM?
I don't know of any customers wiping out any MWR or Piper cams. I assume I'd get requests for single cam purchases during the repair. I've had none. It is critical that you replace your rockers if they're damaged or worn when installing new cams. If you reuse rockers and your old cam wiped out then your new cam will wipe out regardless of what kind it is.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:04 AM   #16 (permalink)
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IIRC, the stage 2 cams help the low end, but sacrifice the top end power?
Not at all. With VVL and VVT you can improve both without sacrificing the other. The best gains are in the 3.5-6k range but you do see improvement at high rpm as well.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:35 PM   #17 (permalink)
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+1 on the MWR stage 3s we run on our XP car. Ultimately if you are going to get a S/C anyway, they will add power before and after. As Kenny Duttweiler or Corky Bell will tell you a better NA setup will generally give you more Forced Induction performance. Because of the low cam and high cam, the car idles and runs like stock. The only difference is on the dyno and seat of the pants!
Interesting. looking at the graphs on the mwr site I got the impression that stage 2 piper was likely to be the best for autox, stage 3 seems to emphasize the top rpms. Here's what analysis of 2 of my runs leads to for importance of various rpms...



I did that analysis because I am thinking of doing some tuning (or having it done more likely) and I wanted to be able to communicate my priorities... maximize torque where the usage frequency is highest. Of course you are a faster driver in a faster car and using a quaif seq tranny, so your priorities may differ a little bit, but my guess is that these things are dictated by the courses and only adjusted somewhat by the driver/car. These numbers come from 2012 with Stock motor, charlie-x tune, f5 intake only I don't have any good data post wing, PPE header. I was lazy about data collection in 2013, and i probably drive 1.5-2 seconds faster per 60sec than 2012. Wish I had recent data...

Edit: The runs I chose were 2012 Devens National Tour, and a may 2012 race in which I did ok (for 2012), and the course was reasonably fast an open like a nationals course. I don't seem to have a good log from a course with a real slow down under 30, except one time when it was down under 20 and I was downshifting (and got beat by my co driver who didn't shift). So this may undervalue 3000-4000 rpm slightly.
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Old 01-23-2014, 08:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Has anyone run a Piper or MWR camshaft on a stock setup? I emailed Piper and they said it would be OK to use thier 285 camshaft on a stock setup. I am just not sure


Thanks for any input
I have installed a piper stage 2 cam on my almost stock Lotus Exiges S240, with after market exhaust and found out the engine stalls quite often before stop at traffic light, I have to blip the throttle right after depress the clutch to stop engine stalling. The mid range power gain is quite impressive indeed.

In order to get rid of the engine stalling, I bought a SSC P&P ECU together with, header, de-cat, smaller pulley and uprated fuel pump. Now the car is transformed into a beast. Now the car has 278WHP with RON98 fuel.

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Old 04-10-2014, 04:28 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Wow, great results.

Idle- aftermarket cams will idle a little rougher. Being able to raise idle rpm and tune the fuel and spark around idle allows you to smooth it out as you have discovered. The Piper cams have a fairly aggressive small lobe but often will still idle acceptably on a stock tune. The MWR cams have a more aggressive small lobe (in order to make better torque in the 3.5-6k range) so they work best with a tune or a programmable ECU.

On a supercharged car you will usually need to go to a smaller pulley when you upgrade cams to maintain the same boost level and maximize your power gains. Positive displacement superchargers like the stock Lotus SC and the TVS upgrades move more of less the same air volume at a given rpm regardless of the engine setup. More power requires more air. Same idea applies when upgrading to a 2.0L stroker.

On stage 2 vs stage 3, it depends a lot on your intended RPM range. Guys like Fred push the engines hard and rev high; they'll get some great benefits from the stage 3's big lobe. For most racers though the stage 2 is best with its stronger performance below 8k.

I just noticed the earlier comment about using the cams with a stock setup- that is fine for the most part but all 2ZZ upgrade cams require upgraded valve springs. The stock valve springs will coil bind.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:49 AM   #20 (permalink)
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My Elise started making a clicking, rattling noise. I thought it was a valve or lifter. Took it to my local mechanic, and we discovered it was the dreaded cam problem. I thought I would make the best of it and put on MWR cams, better springs, better valves, new rockers, rocker shafts, etc. Talked to Mark at Vision Function and he said I would have to bring my car back to Maryland for the tune. Tennessee to Maryland was a long way the first time. Now I am going back with stock cams, rockers and rocker shafts!
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