bad camshafts- possible remedy

[Brennon]

Originally Posted by Icedog_16

So, it appears as though they've had a change of heart. Actually, they're saying exactly what I told them the whole time - that it's a design problem. Now I'm out $5K. Where does that leave me?

Small claims court.

Breech of warranty.

[Icedog_16]

Originally Posted by Brennon

Small claims court.

Breech of warranty.

That's kind of what I'm thinking. I'd think my emails alone would be evidence enough. The fact that they are now acknowledging that there is a design problem with the follower would prove my point all the more.

They said my cam was not scored. I never got to see it so I can't say otherwise. However, I'd say that was probably a function of how little time I spent on the 2nd cam.

Perhaps I should address the issue with Rick MacLeish first.

[xtn]

Originally Posted by Icedog_16

...they are now acknowledging that there is a design problem with the follower...

Source? Documentation? Link?

xtn

[Icedog_16]

Originally Posted by xtn

Source? Documentation? Link?

xtn

See post 14. Here's a link: http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...2&postcount=14

[SKYVUE]

Hello?? Post #14 disappeared.

What does mean?

I hope there is a good explanation of that.....

--Hal

[SKYVUE]

The post before me (SKYVUE) and after Ara's post was SuperVixen's post about how the engine defect was a Toyota problem and Lotus is dealing with it. Now the statement was deleted. Hmmmm.....

Explanation please?

--Hal

[Icedog_16]

I'd be interested to know as well. Kinda reminiscent of how they categorically denied me a copy of the email sent from Lotus to the service manager. It was even deleted in the subsequent quote.

BTW, I printed it out prior to its deletion.

[carlover]

i hope there is a good explanation for that. What happened SV?!?!?!

[SKYVUE]

Originally Posted by Icedog_16

I'd be interested to know as well.

BTW, I printed it out prior to its deletion.

Good work Icedog! Can you post it before the English/Japanese Mafia rubs out you, me and SuperVixen?

This is getting VERY interesting. Only a few of us know about the mysterious deletion.

I'm still waiting for a response from Lotus for the letter about "Ice Mode" issue. I'm beginning to feel like Ralph Nader....

--Hal

[lebrunseven]

Originally Posted by SKYVUE

Carl removed the valve cover of my '05 Elise (31000 miles) and we were surprised there were minimal wear on the cam lobes! I'm lucky in this case. That does not discount that there are many other '05-'06 Elises out there that has the cam problem.

I applaud SuperVixen's post and the dealer that takes this problem seriously!!


Here's a task for you: If you have a few hours, remove the valve cover (properly of course) and inspect for wear. Let's find how many Elises have the problem. Note the year, mileage and the use (street or track or both).

Toyota engine design problem? Let's get this done.

--Hal

i pulled my cam cover today. took about 15 minutes. i was glad to see no cam wear- just looked like some of the blackened finish was wearing off. all lobes looked the same. my car is an 05, december04 build, 4,100 miles, no track time. i had my parts manager check today on replacement intake cam- retail @ $260 including followers. we have had more problems w/ the variable intake sproket on toyota 2ZZ engines. that piece sells for less than $200 retail. i was told by my master tech that the sproket is real tricky to get installed properly. i have not heard of any elise' w/ sproket failure- just the cam. i need to know if the lotus cam is exactly the toyota celica cam- w/ no mods. i think it is the same- can anybody confirm this? i agree there should be a log of car year, miles driven, etc, & cam condition.

[Icedog_16]

Originally Posted by SKYVUE

Good work Icedog! Can you post it before the English/Japanese Mafia rubs out you, me and SuperVixen?

This is getting VERY interesting. Only a few of us know about the mysterious deletion.

I'm still waiting for a response from Lotus for the letter about "Ice Mode" issue. I'm beginning to feel like Ralph Nader....

--Hal

Hal,

I'll PM you with it.

[ZTEC]

After reading that I wonder what information has been sent at the dealer level if any? It sounds like alot of people in Lotus are aware of the issue but just choose not to discuss it and handle it on a case by case basis.

[xtn]

Originally Posted by Icedog_16

Hal,

I'll PM you with it.

Can you hit me up with it in PM as well?

xtn

[SKYVUE]

Saturday morning (April 19 10:30am) , there will be a "Lotus Open House" at SilverStar Thousand Oaks Dealership. The top mechanic (Richie) will be there to discuss technical issues. The cam issue will be a hot topic! I'll let you know if there are any answers. If you are in this area Saturday, you should be there. Besides free coffee and donuts!
--Hal

[RI_RS4]

Respectfully, I think the Valve Cover oil spray misalignment hypothesis is a red herring.

First, for a rocker arm to break requires extreme force. The most probable cause of this force would be valve float, when the piston meets the valve and slaps it back against the rocker arm.

Second, even if the spray is misaligned, the distance between the spray hole and the cam is quite small. The spray will still hit the cam. This will provide the necessary coating and cooling required.

Third, there is an additional lubrication method through the rocker arm itself, also keeping the cam lobe lubricated.

Fourth, for a slipper follower cam/rocker design, the assembly will be operating in what are known as the boundary and mixed lubrication regimes. (The friction characteristics of these regimes can be seen in figure 6 of the paper "Development of the High Speed 2ZZ-GE Engine". In these regimes lubrication is performed by extreme pressure additives and boundary layer additives in the oil, which are designed to coat and chemically react with the cam and follower, creating a boundary layer to buffer wear. This particular high speed rocker design is extremely tough on oil. Oils high in ZDDP content will generally be the best in this application.

My guess, is that the engines with broken rockers had valve float and self-destructed. I'd also guess that in the engines with worn cam lobes that the oil itself failed. There are three possible mechanisms for this.

1) The oil loaded up with fuel, which causes anti-wear/anti-friction layers to be dissolved. Some oils are more tolerant of this than others.

2) The oil was run too long and hard. Either the antiwear properties of the oil broke down, or the oil developed too many contaminants (soot) that increased wear at the cam.

3) The oil overheated and broke down.


It is also quite possible that the high speed camshaft lobe has a defect and was not hardened correctly. This should be tested by Lotus, and could easily be tested by a mechanical testing lab.


I'd suggest a survey of owners who have had this problem, to see what oil is being used. I'll guess that a few might be using Mobil 1 0W-40 and/or Castrol Syntec 5W-40, based on previous experience I've had with those oils. I'd also suspect that anyone using a good Truck oil like Rotella T 5W-40, or Mobil Delvac have not had any problems.

I'd also suggest that owners start performing Oil Analysis as a preventative measure. Give enough oil samples on enough engines, the "normal" wear signature of the engine will be seen and any outliers, due to excessive cam lobe wear will easily stand out like a sore thumb. Given the limited data I've seen on the engine, I suspect that it has a fuel dilution problem, that is, fuel getting into the oil, which is causing the oil to break down earlier than it normally should. This can also be seen in oil analysis. Personally for this, especially for those who are tracking their cars and/or have FI modifications, I would use Terry Dyson for a professional oil analysis and interpretation. I've been doing this on all my cars for the last few years.

Dyson Analysis

If a number of owners would take oil analysis samples (before oil change) on engines that do not appear to have any camshaft problems, and on those engines that do show excessive cam wear, the signature of the wear should become apparent, and allow early problem prediction.

Of course, I could be totally wrong! For those that are interested, I don't own an Elise, but have been researching one for track use.

[andykeck]

Interesting post. But the question is still unanswered: why always #3

[Brennon]

It's really sort of a pain to have to send off your oil for analysis for a toyota engine. If I was driving a ferrari, fine....but a lotus with a toyota engine? There should be absolutely no reason that this should happen to an engine at 20,000 miles (or even less).

[insane]

Originally Posted by SKYVUE

Saturday morning (April 19 10:30am) , there will be a "Lotus Open House" at SilverStar Thousand Oaks Dealership. The top mechanic (Richie) will be there to discuss technical issues. The cam issue will be a hot topic! I'll let you know if there are any answers. If you are in this area Saturday, you should be there. Besides free coffee and donuts!
--Hal

Hal, it would be a coup if you could youtube it!

Originally Posted by RI_RS4

Respectfully, I think the Valve Cover oil spray misalignment hypothesis is a red herring...

Your thoughts are all valid, but almost all have been beat to death already--in this thread, and in a couple of related ones. It always comes back to...
Wait for it... Go Andy--

Originally Posted by andykeck

....the question is still unanswered: why always #3

'atta boy....

[andykeck]

Originally Posted by insane

'atta boy....

woop

[RI_RS4]

Some of the pictures I've seen show excessive wear on other cam lobes than just #3, and some people report a problem with #3 and #4. Then there are those people who had their cams replaced and do not report any specific cylinder. Has anyone put together a database of the codes and failures? Depending on the number of failures you've seen, there may not be a statistical significance.