Camshaft cover defect causing rocker-arm breakage (P1302)?

[ZTEC]

Originally Posted by insane

Yup.... check out my 'link' in post #6 ---^



Actually, the angle doesn't change with distance. Only the magnitude of error (of missing its mark) changes. Nit-picky point....

You are correct sir -

[tvacc]

Is there any chance on Lotus picking this research up and running with it. To fix what appears to my untrained eye a manufacturing defect as a warranty recall issue.

[jkolb]

Any dealers reading this thread? I would suggest that you get with Lotus on this immediately It would be a whole lot cheaper to replace this tube than to replace an engine after rocker/cam debris has circulated through the engine. I would also suggest that those on this forum send the contents of this thread to their own dealers. The squeaky wheel . . . .

Jerry

[Toad]

Good work..has this test been run on other cam covers where there is no P1302 (yet)?

[perryeyges]

Are you kidding, Lotus would much rather replace an engine here and there than to have to retrofit a new valve cover on every car(they wouldn't mess with the tubes I'm sure) and admit to the community that there is a problem with all of the engines(even cars out of warranty)
The only real hope is that Yamaha or Toyota would cover cost of the recall. Yamaha would be responsible for poor build quality. If they build these motors exactly to Toyota's spec then Toyota would have to cover the recall costs for Lotus.

[lotushark]

I was really hoping we'd be wrong about the damage, Michael. This is not what I had in mind when I said you were next (I meant the supercharger). Good detective work though. I'm very curious to see some other cam covers. I'll try to get with Nick and Nick this week and see if we can't do some sort of comparision. Let me know what I can do to help.

[tvacc]

I would think that the next step if Lotus is not going to do anything about this is to start a fund to buy a bunch of good covers...then swap them out ourselves fixing the covers as we get them back.

[tesprit]

I found this technical paper on the 2ZZ engine. It explains the development of the valve train and materials chosen as well as the desired characteristics of the engine. This is good information if you are having trouble understanding what is going on in this thread. Just click on "Development of the High Speed Toyota 2ZZ-GE Engine" under "engines". It is a PDF file (505kb).

http://www.mmsport.com.au/Technical_Documents.php

[insane]

Originally Posted by tvacc

Is there any chance on Lotus picking this research up and running with it. To fix what appears to my untrained eye a manufacturing defect as a warranty recall issue.

Originally Posted by jkolb

Any dealers reading this thread? I would suggest that you get with Lotus on this immediately It would be a whole lot cheaper to replace this tube than to replace an engine after rocker/cam debris has circulated through the engine. I would also suggest that those on this forum send the contents of this thread to their own dealers. The squeaky wheel . . . .

Jerry

Originally Posted by perryeyges

Are you kidding, Lotus would much rather replace an engine here and there than to have to retrofit a new valve cover on every car(they wouldn't mess with the tubes I'm sure) and admit to the community that there is a problem with all of the engines(even cars out of warranty)
The only real hope is that Yamaha or Toyota would cover cost of the recall. Yamaha would be responsible for poor build quality. If they build these motors exactly to Toyota's spec then Toyota would have to cover the recall costs for Lotus.

I really don't want this to turn into a "Boo Lotus" thread. Keep in mind, I'm only posting a singular observation of my own engine; that's far from identifying the camshaft cover as the culprit which caused all of these failures.

What would be good would be some additional, independent verification (or contradiction) of Badnis' observation back in Feb of '06. That's all I've done.

[insane]

Originally Posted by tesprit

I found this technical paper on the 2ZZ engine. It explains the development of the valve train and materials chosen as well as the desired characteristics of the engine. This is good information if you are having trouble understanding what is going on in this thread. Just click on "Development of the High Speed Toyota 2ZZ-GE Engine" under "engines". It is a PDF file (505kb).

http://www.mmsport.com.au/Technical_Documents.php

Nice find....

[tesprit]

Thanks, I tried to post the actual file instead of a link, but 505kb is too large for an attachment. Does anyone have Adobe Acrobat that could shrink it down to 500kb or less--I only have Acrobat Reader.

[Ol'Racer]

How about if the (developers, manufacturers, Lotus etc.) of the engine wrote a technical letter. It wouldn't admit guilt and it would alleviate massive callback costs. Like the following...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
BULLETIN

Regarding the 2ZZ engine: Information has reached us from the Lotus community of concerns of possible erratic cam cover spray angles. We have not found this to be a problem on covers that we have tested and the thousands currently under use.

However, in order to allay owners fears of possible lubrication deterioration in the overall valve train and cam area, we have developed a High Performance Cam Cover to further enhance lubricating quality for more aggressive use of the valve train and it's related components.

If you feel that your particular driving habits (heavy duty use) would be enhanced with this High Performance cover or for just peace of mind, it can be obtained from you local dealer for $50.00 in exchange for your old core.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If more testing shows that's where the problem lies...IMO a lot of owners would go for a deal like that, if it was offered. I would.

[tvacc]

Yes, let me make it clear that I was not trashing Lotus as well. I was really asking the question seriously. It would seem to me to be the best solution for us but maybe not for a vehicle manufacturer. I dont know the ins and outs of vehicle production.

I would like to know if this is happening on cars that dont have the codes yet. And if there was a change in the valve covers along the way.

[nvrblu]

It's nice to see that they use a closed loop tube. I'm helping my son replace the timing chain on his Nissan SR20DE engine and found the oiler tubes dead-end at the front end. The #1 intake cam lobe looked a bit burnt and I found that crud had built up in the end of the tube enough to block flow

[Icedog_16]

Originally Posted by tvacc

Is there any chance on Lotus picking this research up and running with it. To fix what appears to my untrained eye a manufacturing defect as a warranty recall issue.

This is why I've suggested that those affected report the problem to the NHTSA. At some point, they would be compelled to do so. Obviously, more info needs to be gathered (like from a normal car as others have said), but reporting the problem would both centralize the gathering of the data and provide an impetus for Lotus to investigate further. But, if you'll recall, those at the forefront of the the breaking shifter epidemic were originally blamed for the failure. It wasn't until the failures began being reported to the NHTSA that Lotus acknowledged that the shifter was not designed properly.

[Toad]

Originally Posted by Icedog_16

This is why I've suggested that those affected report the problem to the NHTSA. At some point, they would be compelled to do so. Obviously, more info needs to be gathered (like from a normal car as others have said), but reporting the problem would both centralize the gathering of the data and provide an impetus for Lotus to investigate further. But, if you'll recall, those at the forefront of the the breaking shifter epidemic were originally blamed for the failure. It wasn't until the failures began being reported to the NHTSA that Lotus acknowledged that the shifter was not designed properly.

Thats what needed to be done with the M100 Elan Fuel Tank recall as well.

[ZTEC]

Originally Posted by lotushark

I was really hoping we'd be wrong about the damage, Michael. This is not what I had in mind when I said you were next (I meant the supercharger). Good detective work though. I'm very curious to see some other cam covers. I'll try to get with Nick and Nick this week and see if we can't do some sort of comparision. Let me know what I can do to help.

Hey Josh - thanks again for your guidance on the phone I will be pulling my cover sometime this week for a quick inspection of the high lift cams and the shower alignment ( I am out of Warranty ya know ) and I will track Down the other Nick who had his failure repaired under warranty just a few weeks ago and try and find out what exactly Lotus replaced.
NZ

[jkolb]

I don't see this thread as trashing Lotus in any way. This is great work, and can be of great benefit to both Lotus and Toyota. It is likely that only a short run of engines have this problem, but it is still important to isolate and correct it. Imagine, Toyota may be analyzing the strength of rocker arms while all the time it is a lubrication issue. Well done!

Jerry

[ZAMMY1]

i guess it's time to pull my valve cover and do the 'squirt test' first on the elise and then on the XRS.
the elise is up for the winter so there's no lost driving time.
i have about 10,500 on the elise and about 22k on the xrs, i think.
is there anything i should know beyond the real toyota manuals?
is it necessary to replace gaskets/o-rings for a R and R?
sam

[tvacc]

Originally Posted by jkolb

I don't see this thread as trashing Lotus in any way. This is great work, and can be of great benefit to both Lotus and Toyota. It is likely that only a short run of engines have this problem, but it is still important to isolate and correct it. Imagine, Toyota may be analyzing the strength of rocker arms while all the time it is a lubrication issue. Well done!

Jerry

I agree completly with this. Hey, I have always found Lotus to be responsive to us. Now I agree they have to be careful with liabiity laws and all. Hey I would even be open to them just offering a swap out with us taking ours off and sending it back. I think it is in the interest of all including Lotus to not have a problem here that goes unresolved.

We dont want Lotus to be responsible for something they should not be as well as taking care of a situation as it arises.