Camshaft cover defect causing rocker-arm breakage (P1302)? - Page 5 - LotusTalk

Smaay · 01-08-2008, 08:41 AM

i ran into a similar situation on a celica i was working on. at first i though the top of the valve broke where the shim sits, but now its possible that the rocker failed and that broke the valve. unfortunatly the valve fell in the cylinder and smacked the piston. it broke the valve guide. that was a simple fix. the piston was fine, so a new valve, rockers set and cam, and valve guide was needed in the repair.

darkSol · 01-08-2008, 09:53 AM

Ohhhh man that hurts to look at those pictures.

Boosted2.0 · 01-08-2008, 10:11 AM

Interesting. I have a couple 2ZZ valve covers in my garage. If I remember I will check the flow on them squirters tonight.

ZAMMY1 · 01-08-2008, 10:23 AM

OFFSET VALVES!
a novel idea!
those pictures hurt.
toyota prices are not cheap.
my two cars have not had any codes, i just took the elise apart for precaution.
sam

Ruchmate · 01-08-2008, 10:42 AM

Is there anything that can be done to prevent this from happening to my '05? Or is it that after I inspect my valve cover and see a possible missalignment I just have to live with it?

ZAMMY1 · 01-08-2008, 12:17 PM

keep in mind, this, so far, is all circumstantial evidence.
it could still be metallurgy or such.
to get my squirt that was a bit off aligned, i put the back end of a #54 drill and slightly bent the orofice so it seemed to squirt in the correct direction.
remember, this is water i used and i don't know the fluidic relationship between that and the oil we use.
i had no problems, i only looked at it as a precaution.
and, it was not #3 squirt that was off in my valve cover. it was #1 IN.

looking at the cams is not a big job, it could be done in a couple of hours at most.
sam

Brennon · 01-08-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZAMMY1

keep in mind, this, so far, is all circumstantial evidence.
it could still be metallurgy or such.
to get my squirt that was a bit off aligned, i put the back end of a #54 drill and slightly bent the orofice so it seemed to squirt in the correct direction.
remember, this is water i used and i don't know the fluidic relationship between that and the oil we use.
i had no problems, i only looked at it as a precaution.
and, it was not #3 squirt that was off in my valve cover. it was #1 IN.

looking at the cams is not a big job, it could be done in a couple of hours at most.
sam

My car took 60 days.

Just sayin'.

ZTEC · 01-08-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZAMMY1

it was not #3 squirt that was off in my valve cover. it was #1 IN.
sam

Sam,
I respectfully am going to correct you here

I had your pics as #3 intake was off just like Insane's and your Exhaust #1 was a bit off as well ! lets compare pics!!

First Insanes pic showing the intake side #3 off

then yours showing the exact Intake #3 off as well - Orientation of the cover is the same!

ZAMMY1 · 01-08-2008, 01:54 PM

ZTECH you're right, it was off also.
i may have 'twiddled' that one, too.
good eye!
i did notice that while the water is squirting, a touch with the finger will make the squirt sometimes change and stay that way til you finger it again.
(HELL GETTING OLD!)

it's back together again, hope i haven't forgot anything....
thanks, sam
like red green says, "we're all in this together"

carlover · 01-08-2008, 04:13 PM

I am incredibly impressed by the talent on this forum.

Keep up the great work!

tommyc · 01-08-2008, 05:18 PM

This is the reason this forum is so valuable! I remeber the early 90's with no internet support. When the shifter in my mitsu started moving in 5th gear the dealer said it was normal. It wasn't until a forum"dsm.org" had a bunch of good guys figure out that the nut on the countershaft in the tranny was coming lose and eating away at the housing. Easy fix! to this day I do not think Mitsu had any recalls. This is whay we have to diagnose and modify things to function smoothly and share the info. I thank you all and hope we can all find out what this issue is with or without Lotus. This weekend I will pull my VC and check it out. Tommy

insane · 01-08-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragon

Looks like you got it straitened out pretty good there... I wonder if opening up the restricter just a tiny bit to allow a little more flow would help any. My only worry would be if the slight change in oil pressure could affect the cam change over at all. It probably wouldn't though as I'm sure the oil pressure regulator / bypass valve is already open at those rpms. Also not to keen on the wear patterns on the cam's, probably not a big deal, but the ununiform wear patterns make me wonder to the quality of the cam grind/valve train geometry...

We actually observed that increasing the pressure exacerbated the problem.

Hey! Nice work with the bit, Sammy!!!

insane · 01-08-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insane

You can bet that when I fix mine, there's going to be a new camshaft cover.

Here's my damage at this link.

By the way, if anybody has any good leads, I'm going to need replacement parts CHEAP!

(pm me....)

Dragon · 01-09-2008, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insane

We actually observed that increasing the pressure exacerbated the problem.

Roger that... Higer pressure could hit so hard that it all bounces off the parts in stead of coating them. What may need to be done is increase the volume but at the same or slightly lower pressure.

ZAMMY1 · 01-09-2008, 12:30 PM

FWIW:
i picked up a couple of spare o-rings that the valve cover uses one of.
the toyota part number is 96741-19009, $2.59 each. i like to have a spare handy, didn't really need one.
SAM

MikeW · 01-09-2008, 02:24 PM

I don't recall if anyone did any measuring, but I did and thought I'd share.

This distance from the oil sprayer tube to the cam, measured at the base circle, came out to .559" . When you compress the gasket, it's closer yet. The cam sticks up higher than the gasket surface of the head, by .666 on mine. So I'm not automatically in agreement about the off angle of the oil holes in the spray bar being the cause of cam wear. The angle would have to be way, way off for the oil to miss the cam.

Also, there's a difference between the distance of center to center of the 2 cams and the corresponding measurement of the spray bars. In other words, the bars are not centered over the cams. They're about 3/16" off center. Still pretty minor though. By the way, the holes in my spray bar were misangled too, with #1 intake a bit worse. The lobes looked ask good as you could ever wish for.

Boosted2.0 · 01-09-2008, 03:34 PM

Overrev / rev limit riding -> mushroomed valve -> insufficient valve clearance -> cam wear & rocker breakage

GTsRasta · 01-09-2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Overrev / rev limit riding -> mushroomed valve -> insufficient valve clearance -> cam wear & rocker breakage

I so called that. LIFT can be a killer...

xtn · 01-09-2008, 05:04 PM

Boosted what do you mean "insufficient valve clearance?"

insane · 01-09-2008, 07:41 PM

...the valve hits the seat so hard, it malforms and heads up the valve guide (slightly) -- essentially 'stretching' the valve stem.

Boosted is correct; that's a way-common way to kill a valve train. ....but not the only way.

01-08-2008, 08:41 AM	#81 (permalink)
Smaay Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Home of LACR Posts: 38	i ran into a similar situation on a celica i was working on. at first i though the top of the valve broke where the shim sits, but now its possible that the rocker failed and that broke the valve. unfortunatly the valve fell in the cylinder and smacked the piston. it broke the valve guide. that was a simple fix. the piston was fine, so a new valve, rockers set and cam, and valve guide was needed in the repair. __________________ 2001 Celica GT-S Turbo 1990 Celica All-Trac Turbo 1997 Supra LE TT 6 Speed

01-08-2008, 09:53 AM	#82 (permalink)
darkSol Meow!! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Leawood, KS Posts: 2,576	Ohhhh man that hurts to look at those pictures. __________________ d.a..v...i....d David Thomas Stewart - davidtstewart@gmail.com TVS Supercharged 2005 Graphite Grey Lotus Elise: 286whp, 1781lbs. Lotus cars aren't made, they're hand built from dreams. If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.

01-08-2008, 10:42 AM	#85 (permalink)
Ruchmate I'd rather be doing vvv Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 212	Is there anything that can be done to prevent this from happening to my '05? Or is it that after I inspect my valve cover and see a possible missalignment I just have to live with it? __________________ 2005 Ardent Red Elise. Sport, Touring, Hardtop. Stuff done (feel free to ask me about any): Moroso Oil Pan, Sector111 Micro Mirror, carpet buttons, re-enforcer, braille battery, Nitron Quickratio steering rack, SS lines, painted console, HIDs, Ohlins Sport, BWR front sway bar, BWR supercharger, 2Bular 6" Ultra Exhaust 2005 Suzuki SV650 nekkid

01-08-2008, 04:13 PM	#90 (permalink)
carlover できそこないの傲慢嫌い Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 1,374	I am incredibly impressed by the talent on this forum. Keep up the great work! __________________ Check the VIN of the Lotus you're considering buying http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/h...hl30039-66280/

01-08-2008, 05:18 PM	#91 (permalink)
tommyc Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: wellington, Fl Posts: 115	This is the reason this forum is so valuable! I remeber the early 90's with no internet support. When the shifter in my mitsu started moving in 5th gear the dealer said it was normal. It wasn't until a forum"dsm.org" had a bunch of good guys figure out that the nut on the countershaft in the tranny was coming lose and eating away at the housing. Easy fix! to this day I do not think Mitsu had any recalls. This is whay we have to diagnose and modify things to function smoothly and share the info. I thank you all and hope we can all find out what this issue is with or without Lotus. This weekend I will pull my VC and check it out. Tommy __________________ 05 elise graphite sport touring BWR s/c Charliex tune 90 eclipse gsx 420 whp sold 04 civic si

01-08-2008, 10:11 AM	#83 (permalink)
Boosted2.0 Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 764	Interesting. I have a couple 2ZZ valve covers in my garage. If I remember I will check the flow on them squirters tonight.

01-08-2008, 10:23 AM	#84 (permalink)
ZAMMY1 ZAMMY Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: washington, pa, (near PGH.) Posts: 1,557	OFFSET VALVES! a novel idea! those pictures hurt. toyota prices are not cheap. my two cars have not had any codes, i just took the elise apart for precaution. sam

01-08-2008, 12:17 PM	#86 (permalink)
ZAMMY1 ZAMMY Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: washington, pa, (near PGH.) Posts: 1,557	keep in mind, this, so far, is all circumstantial evidence. it could still be metallurgy or such. to get my squirt that was a bit off aligned, i put the back end of a #54 drill and slightly bent the orofice so it seemed to squirt in the correct direction. remember, this is water i used and i don't know the fluidic relationship between that and the oil we use. i had no problems, i only looked at it as a precaution. and, it was not #3 squirt that was off in my valve cover. it was #1 IN. looking at the cams is not a big job, it could be done in a couple of hours at most. sam

01-08-2008, 01:54 PM	#89 (permalink)
ZAMMY1 ZAMMY Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: washington, pa, (near PGH.) Posts: 1,557	ZTECH you're right, it was off also. i may have 'twiddled' that one, too. good eye! i did notice that while the water is squirting, a touch with the finger will make the squirt sometimes change and stay that way til you finger it again. (HELL GETTING OLD!) it's back together again, hope i haven't forgot anything.... thanks, sam like red green says, "we're all in this together"

01-09-2008, 12:30 PM	#95 (permalink)
ZAMMY1 ZAMMY Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: washington, pa, (near PGH.) Posts: 1,557	VALVE COVER O-RING PARTNO. FWIW: i picked up a couple of spare o-rings that the valve cover uses one of. the toyota part number is 96741-19009, $2.59 each. i like to have a spare handy, didn't really need one. SAM

01-09-2008, 02:24 PM	#96 (permalink)
MikeW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,372	I don't recall if anyone did any measuring, but I did and thought I'd share. This distance from the oil sprayer tube to the cam, measured at the base circle, came out to .559" . When you compress the gasket, it's closer yet. The cam sticks up higher than the gasket surface of the head, by .666 on mine. So I'm not automatically in agreement about the off angle of the oil holes in the spray bar being the cause of cam wear. The angle would have to be way, way off for the oil to miss the cam. Also, there's a difference between the distance of center to center of the 2 cams and the corresponding measurement of the spray bars. In other words, the bars are not centered over the cams. They're about 3/16" off center. Still pretty minor though. By the way, the holes in my spray bar were misangled too, with #1 intake a bit worse. The lobes looked ask good as you could ever wish for.

01-09-2008, 03:34 PM	#97 (permalink)
Boosted2.0 Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 764	Overrev / rev limit riding -> mushroomed valve -> insufficient valve clearance -> cam wear & rocker breakage

01-09-2008, 05:04 PM	#99 (permalink)
xtn McLareghini Bugatterrari Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 6,845	Boosted what do you mean "insufficient valve clearance?" __________________ 2006 McLareghini Bugatterrari, Storm Titanium... <mods> installed: air horn, Scroth 4-point ASM harnesses, Sector111 halon extinguisher and mounting bracket, Von Hep exhaust and rear panel delete, Pagid brake pads, red Volks CE28n wheels, Toyo RA-1 tires, Nitron SA coilovers, Sector111 (WorksBell) quick-disconnect steering wheel kit. awaiting installation: Scroth "pull-up" lap belts, Sector111 RTD Brace, Tony's heater bypass mod, and dropped steering rack mounting plates. </mods>

01-09-2008, 07:41 PM	#100 (permalink)
insane Mikey likes it! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Winter Park, Fla Posts: 1,301	...the valve hits the seat so hard, it malforms and heads up the valve guide (slightly) -- essentially 'stretching' the valve stem. Boosted is correct; that's a way-common way to kill a valve train. ....but not the only way. __________________ -Michael '05 Nighfall Blue with Rallye Stripes!

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