Clutch Replacement?

[YAUDI]

If a clutch is not slipping and still gripping fine, can it still be worn out and need to be replaced? Will a worn clutch cause shifting problems for the gearbox? Just trying to figure out if my clutch can cause my slow tranny shifting problem. Dealer wants to tear her down since they can't diagnose the problem other wise... If the a worn clutch is the culprit, I get to fit the full bill . Help please, TIA...

Here is my other thread:
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19436

[matt]

I would guess your clutch is not disengaging propely. I do not believe that is a sign of a worn clutch... I assume your or the dealer tried to ajdust it?

[YAUDI]

Yeah, that seems to make the more sense. It's hard to gauge, but after the slow shifting started occurring, I can sense the clutch pedal vibrates more when you first start pushing it. I wonder it it could be the throwout bearing?

I'd image you can adjust the clutch engagement without removing the tranny? I guess nobody else on ET has had something similar to this ?

[evomind]

who the heck is so eager to remove ur tranny or clutch b4 investigating every and any other option?
removing anything should always be the last thing to consider. its not an easy job on this car to r and r a clutch or tranny.
they should be looking at things like linkage and engagements. once they rule EVERYTHING else out, then start removing stuff.
fwiw, it doesnt sound like a bad clutch, but is it possible? sure.
if its a tob, u will more than likely hear it squeaking too.
sounds like more of a linkage/engagement issue to me.

[YAUDI]

After discussing with a tech and reaffirming with the service advisor, I think they have been pretty thorough. Bottomline is I want it fixed and I want to know what caused and maybe why something failed... My car has seen lots of track time, so I'm sure I'll get things that more mildly used ones will not... I'll keep you guys informed since this seems like some undiscovered territory...

Would suck to know if the clutch could take the usage, I can't say I've been that hard with it ... I'm very good about off throttle up shifts and heel-n-toe downshifts. Over 17k miles, still no standing starts logged by ECU... Well, that's how the cards fall sometimes ...

[Dave]

Clutch replacement averages about 10 hours...my ACT install labor was just over a grand. 10 hours is in-line with most other posts I've read.

[evomind]

my shop charged me 10 hours too...and said they used everybit of 10 hours and probably more....
thats really stupid to design a sportscar that takes 10 hours to r and r a clutch.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by evomind

my shop charged me 10 hours too...and said they used everybit of 10 hours and probably more....
thats really stupid to design a sportscar that takes 10 hours to r and r a clutch.

Not to change subjects, but evo how many hours for your flywheel? Did you do it at the same time?

[TTP]

Frankie,

Have you searched the celica boards to see if there are simlair issues since we do share some of the same systems?

[esprit89]

Originally Posted by evomind

thats really stupid to design a sportscar that takes 10 hours to r and r a clutch.

That's funny - ever replace a clutch on a 4-cyl Esprit? It takes at least that long if not longer: remove 3/4 window shelf over ECU; remove trunk floor disconnecting vacuum lines and all the relays and solenoids from ECU; remove chassis rear cross member; remove muffler and mounts; disconnect shift cables; drain transmission; remove roll pins securing driveshafts; disconnect rear suspension links to pull drive shafts; remove starter; remove clutch slave cylinder; remove turbo air intake hose; pull transmission. There's probably a few steps I'm missing as it's been a few months since I've done it.

I imagine on the Elise the transmission R&R time is no different than that of a Celica since the drivetrain was a straight drop-in. Need to blame Toyota if it takes too long.

Cheers,
Michael

[esprit89]

Originally Posted by YAUDI

Yeah, that seems to make the more sense. It's hard to gauge, but after the slow shifting started occurring, I can sense the clutch pedal vibrates more when you first start pushing it. I wonder it it could be the throwout bearing?

What do you mean specifically by slow shifting? Is more effort on the shift lever required to engage a gear? Are all gears affected? If you have the engine off and try selecting different gears is there any difference in effort required compared with before you started experiencing the symptoms?

If the problem occurs with all gears it would seem to indicate the problem is with the clutch not disengaging properly and dragging. If it's just one or two gears then the gearbox might be suspect.

A dragging clutch can caused by a worn, binding or misadjusted clutch linkage (clutch fork), or air in the hydraulic clutch lines, or damaged pressure plate fingers, or binding of the clutch disc on the input shaft.

Release or throw-out bearing problems usually show up in the form of whirring or growling sounds when applying the clutch pedal, which go away when releasing the pedal.

Originally Posted by YAUDI

I'd image you can adjust the clutch engagement without removing the tranny? I guess nobody else on ET has had something similar to this ?

Since it is hydraulic, the clutch is self-adjusting.

I'm curious to know what they find.

Michael

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by YAUDI

If the a worn clutch is the culprit, I get to fit the full bill

Why wouldn't that be covered by the warranty? As long as you haven't abused it, it should last longer than 17,000 miles...

[YAUDI]

Originally Posted by esprit89

What do you mean specifically by slow shifting? Is more effort on the shift lever required to engage a gear? Are all gears affected? If you have the engine off and try selecting different gears is there any difference in effort required compared with before you started experiencing the symptoms?

On an upshift, you have to wait at the gate for about a second before the gear will be allowed to be engage at revs over ~5000 RPMs. Shifts like normal at lower revs. As far as I can tell, all gears are affected. With engine off, the gear shifting felt pretty much normal. The dealer has bleed the clutch system and the problem still persists.

[YAUDI]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

Why wouldn't that be covered by the warranty? As long as you haven't abused it, it should last longer than 17,000 miles...

That's what I'm hoping. I am pretty sure I didn't abuse her, but we'll find out shortly what the dealer and Lotus deem as abused when they got her opened up. The service advisor stated something like if it's the clutch that's the problem, I mightl be paying since I could have abused it. But if it is another mechanical part, it would most likely be covered. It's all kinda semantics right now till the fingers start pointing... I figured the no standing starts ever from the ECU log in almost 400 hrs of engine operation is a good indication that I'm not abusive to the clutch. Regardless, I've always been a bit of a pessimist...

[choi0706]

Originally Posted by YAUDI

Yeah, that seems to make the more sense. It's hard to gauge, but after the slow shifting started occurring, I can sense the clutch pedal vibrates more when you first start pushing it. I wonder it it could be the throwout bearing?

I'd image you can adjust the clutch engagement without removing the tranny? I guess nobody else on ET has had something similar to this ?

mine vibrates also....

[esprit89]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

Why wouldn't that be covered by the warranty? As long as you haven't abused it, it should last longer than 17,000 miles...

This thread has awoken a long repressed memory of having to replace the clutch on a '92 Integra I used to have. Pulling away from a light and shifting to second the clutch pedal went to the floor with a spongy feel and I couldn't shift into gear.

I took it to the dealer as it was still under warranty. They stated that if the problem was due to abuse it would not be covered. It turns out the pressure plate failed - the return spring "fingers" had bent. The clutch disc and flywheel/pressure plate surfaces showed no wear so the clutch was replaced under warranty.

The Centerforce clutch people have a diagnostic guide with some good information. The link is on the upper right hand side of this page: http://www.centerforce.com/

Michael

[tripdog]

Do you pull the engine to replace the clutch in the Elise? If so 10 hours is cruisin' right along.
Trip

[YAUDI]

Well, it was clutch related and you don't have to pull engine to get tranny and clutch out. See this thread for details:
CLICK ME!!!