E85 Swap

[TheExigentOne]

I wasnt sure where else to put this, mods if this is the wrong spot feel free to move it.

So I brought my '06 Exige to SoCal and since it was supercharged I had a hell of a time getting it to pass emissions. I finally got it cleared, but its still not right. So I'm faced with a few options. one of which is to put in an X2 and switch to E85. Seems like a reasonable option. Anyone else have any experience with this?

[Elige]

What do you mean when you say "it's not right"? What supercharger setup and tune are you running?

[Formula313]

I am really familiar with e85 but it's more complicated than most people think like elige was asking what's your current setup



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[hackish]

In my experience E85 will not magically cure emissions problems. I see no reason why a supercharged car won't pass emissions either. Locally we have sniff tests which are much harder than the OBD2 stuff and I've found that anything with a decent tune and good cat will generally pass.

-Michael

[addertooth]

DRS in California does E85 conversions; give them a call.

[06Elise]

I have an efi x2 in Cali and no you cannot pass smog with it at all. Efi x2 does not use OBD2 so you would have to switch the car back to stock to smog it every year....
+ 1 for what adder tooth said. Kris at DRS should be able to help you.

[hackish]

Originally Posted by 06Elise

I have an efi x2 in Cali and no you cannot pass smog with it at all. Efi x2 does not use OBD2 so you would have to switch the car back to stock to smog it every year....
+ 1 for what adder tooth said. Kris at DRS should be able to help you.

Technology moves forward. No need to go EFI when you can get the same results by having your stock computer tuned. I'm pretty confident that the stock unit could pass an OBD2 smog. I think it would be kickass to wire an E85 detector to an unused input and have that trigger a map switch to your E85 maps. That would be a truly flex fuel car. In my experience you'd need some really big injectors.

-Michael

[boardertj]

Michael,
I am waiting on your tuning solution to hit the market for just this reason. I'd love to have a separate e85 tune with simple flick of a switch (or in your case automatically detected/activated!!). Can't wait till the 05 system is ready.

Originally Posted by hackish

Technology moves forward. No need to go EFI when you can get the same results by having your stock computer tuned. I'm pretty confident that the stock unit could pass an OBD2 smog. I think it would be kickass to wire an E85 detector to an unused input and have that trigger a map switch to your E85 maps. That would be a truly flex fuel car. In my experience you'd need some really big injectors.

-Michael

[Elige]

Originally Posted by hackish

I think it would be kickass to wire an E85 detector to an unused input and have that trigger a map switch to your E85 maps. That would be a truly flex fuel car. In my experience you'd need some really big injectors.

-Michael

THIS would be awesome!

[Elige]

Originally Posted by hackish

I see no reason why a supercharged car won't pass emissions either. Locally we have sniff tests which are much harder than the OBD2 stuff and I've found that anything with a decent tune and good cat will generally pass.

-Michael

Many cars here in SoCal with aftermarket S/C's do (and it's sniffer +OBD2). I'm guessing the OP either has a bad cat or a bad tune.

[WhatsADSM]

No way the EFI unit will pass Cali emissions.

E85 and a Standalone will not fix your issues. You need to solve the issues on the stock ECU to pass.

[hackish]

The first trick with the software is to get it out and it's nearly there. I'm sure there will be a big announcement since there are a lot of people waiting. The live map switching will come out later as I need to actually test it on a car to determine if it's safe enough to copy the maps while the engine is running.

I don't mean to sidetrack the original thread. I just feel bad sitting on the sidelines as people spend hard earned money on hardware I know will cause heartache... OK, back to testing the software :P

-Michael

[Elige]

Hackish, have you had much experience with an e85 detector and switching between maps on the fly? I'm just wondering what happen when you have a mixture of gas and e85 in the tank? I think some of the more sophisticated flex fuel systems have something that can asses the ethanol content within the tank and adjust accordingly, am I correct? Seems like having it setup as an on/off switch may put the car in some bad spots when there is a mixture within the tank.

[WhatsADSM]

Originally Posted by Elige

Hackish, have you had much experience with an e85 detector and switching between maps on the fly? I'm just wondering what happen when you have a mixture of gas and e85 in the tank? I think some of the more sophisticated flex fuel systems have something that can asses the ethanol content within the tank and adjust accordingly, am I correct? Seems like having it setup as an on/off switch may put the car in some bad spots when there is a mixture within the tank.

You are correct the right way to do it is to run it into an analog input. It really shouldn't be treated as a map switch but rather a map blend. Speaking from a great deal of experience here you almost never have the opportunity to completely empty out one form of fuel and refill with another. It is almost always a varying ethanol content. Of course "e85" can also vary a bit from pump to pump and at different times during the year (although honestly that's blown out of proportion) so a true analog based input helps it fine tune there as well.

Depending on how aggressive the tune if you were to not run the tank down enough and fill with e85 a binary switch to the e85 map can have you in danger of taking the motor apart with knock. Not running the tank down enough and filling with pump gas a binary switch to a pump gas map can have you in danger of taking the motor apart due to a lean AFR.

The right way to do it. Calculate the true fuel volume by ethanol content. The lambda will be pretty darn close to what you want... a blend for target afr would be nice but more of a delighter than an absolute need (again assuming fuel volume scalar is placed on the injectors versus ethanol content). Then a simple 3D blend map on the ignition side for cylinder pressure (or gm/cyl) versus rpm is needed for spark.

The start maps may also haunt you a bit especially at cold temps on ethanol. Some blending would be nice there as well but I'd bet a map switch is fine. Not much risk of really hurting much there anyways.

[TheExigentOne]

I hope you don't mind me griping for a moment. Here's my story:
I purchased the '06 in Kansas and drove it back to SoCal. The smartest thing seemed to be that I should take it to an expert to check it out and see what I was dealing with. The best advise I had found pointed to Sector 111. After spending less than 2 hours at the shop I left knowing that I had a Katana supercharger that was added aftermarket, that my pulley was undersized to make more power (which they wanted to replace with the stock tune and stock pulley), i had an oil leak from the front side of the motor, my discs were nearly at the end of their life, that my bushings were worn, and that i just paid $450 for 4.5 hours of investigative labor. Oh, and that the owner couldn't tell me why the company was called "sector" (I had already figured out the 111 part).

Luckily I met a guy that worked at Toyota that knew a Lotus guy. For the last year DRS has taken care of my car. I'm pretty sure meeting Kris was one of the best things that could have happened to my Exige.

What I learned from DRS is that I had a CharlieX tune that blocks out several readings that a smog check requires. The computer was re-flashed... we've gone through several programs, but had to pull off the aftermarket intake tube with a K&N filter, exhaust, cat, & muffler and replace them all with stock items. I'm still running the same tune, but I've gotten all my aftermarket items back on the car. They also fixed my oil leak by replacing an o-ring on the dipstick.

Currently the plan is to add an X2 and have Kris hand tune the car. Replace the aftermarket intake with the Lotus Cup intake tube. Add temperature sensor to the supercharger. Two additional options are 1. add an air-water inner-cooler (a bit expensive) 2. swap to e85.

[Elige]

So what's wrong with the car right now? What "tune" did DRS load on to your ecu? Koldfire possibly? Are you still running the smaller pulley? FWIW, my charlieX tuned katana setup passes CA emissions with ease.

[TheExigentOne]

Yes its Koldfire. yes, still running the smaller pulley. The CharlieX blocks multiple outputs... well mine did, maybe yours doesnt IDK...

Who works on your car?

whats wrong now? my check engine light is on (lean code) and i worry the cat is over heating

[Elige]

I would put the standard size pulley on the car and get the appropriate tune for that pulley. That smaller pulley doesn't give you that much more power on a non intercooled mp62 setup. Do you know if you have a stock or upgraded fuel pump? if it's still the stock unit then that accompanied with the smaller pulley may be whats causing the lean condition. Also, try and find a more friendly smog guy if you know what I mean.

[hackish]

Fortunately I do not disable any of the OBD2 checks. If you're getting a lean code that is more frequently a problem with the tune itself. While the user is certainly given the opportunity to adjust the criteria for emissions checks I recommend that they try to ensure their emissions equipment is operating correctly.

As for the E85 detectors WhatsADSM does a good job of describing it. I believe Zeitronix sells the detectors. Potentially I could implement proper blending but in reality the solution probably only requires a few steps. OEMs don't even do continuously variable tunes as they're really difficult to tune.

-Michael

[TheExigentOne]

anyone know the MPG loss percentage when swapping to E85?

also, my air inlet temp isnt correct because it reads the temp at the filter not at the supercharger. DRS plans to fix that.