Engine Oil

[kortik]

0w40 replaced w/5w40 its a BS
0w40 would be much better in terms of protecting your cold engine compared to 5w40

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by kortik

0w40 replaced w/5w40 its a BS
0w40 would be much better in terms of protecting your cold engine compared to 5w40

According to your understanding.

It's possible that the 0W40 is too thin under the conditions that the Elise sees (oil coolers and all). Also, it fairly universally demonstrated that the broader the viscosity range, the more the oil tends to degrade over time. Either of these, or many other possible reasons, could be why Lotus is adamant about 5W40 synthetic oil. You can continue to argue as to which is better, but Lotus is on record that only 5W40 is acceptable for street use. Argue the point with them if you feel the need...

But hey, it's your engine, and obviously you know more about such things than the people the design high performance engines.

[Icedog_16]

Tim, just a question... Why then is 5W30 used in the 2ZZ in the Celica? Same engine, different placement in the vehicle, but hauling around more weight in the Celica, and we have dual oil coolers. I've never figured that out. You'd think that if the viscocity is so critical, the same engine should require the same viscocity in either car, right? Just trying to make sense of it.

[oilteq]

Let me add to the confusion. A 0W-40, 5W-40, 25W-40, and all the other xW-40 oils have to fall into the same kinematic viscosity window at 100 degrees C. The W stands for winter, not weight, and the test temperature varies with the grade you are qualifying for. If my memory is right, the viscosity in the Cold Crank Simulator is taken at –20 C for a 10W-x oils. So, at temperatures above freezing, the difference between a 0W-40 and 5W-40 is insignificant.

In looking through the old posts I was impressed at the amount of knowledge, but some of it was not quite right. Group IV base oils include everything not in the other groups, which includes synthetic esters (polyol esters, monoesters, diesters, etc) and low quality naphthenic base oils no ethical person would consider for motor oils.

I have seen the literature that says “made with this or that synthetic ester.” I believe it, but I believe only a relatively small portion of the oil is synthetic ester. Esters typically have poor cold temperature flow properties, low viscosity indices, and they will attack your seals and eat the paint off of the inside of your oil pan. Well-formulated synthetic oils use 15% or so synthetic ester blended with PAO synthetic base oils.

When base oil breaks down, whether synthetic or petroleum oil, it gets thicker, not thinner. Viscosity drops when polymers or dispersant additives, but mostly polymers, shear. Polymers are also called Viscosity Index Improvers, and they are plastic dissolved into oil. Many of them are designed to shear, at least temporarily, to provide better fuel economy. I do not use them.

By the way, I do not like the current gasoline oil specifications, API SM or just that starburst symbol. A few years ago, Ford tore apart some plugged catalytic converters and found that phosphorus formed a glass like deposit on the surfaces. The industry then tried to develop a test to show an oil’s tendency to form deposits, but they failed because the test was not repeatable. After spending a few hundred thousand dollars, they said, “screw this—we will set a chemical limit of 1,200 ppm.” Later they lowered it to 1,000. In the most recent round of specifications, they lowered it to 800 ppm.

Phosphorus comes from zinc phosphates (ZDDP) used as anti-wear additives. Most cars have rolling cam followers, so it is not a big deal. Most DOHC engines, I assume including the one in the Elise, have sliding cam followers. Poke around the web and you will find there have been numerous flat tappet cam failures with SM oils.

I will not be running extended drains in my Elise or starting it at sub-zero temperatures, so if I had to choose between base oil and antiwear additives, I would not have to think it over. My contention is that if your engine does not burn oil, not much phosphorus from the oil will get to the cat anyway.

Blaine

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by oilteq

The W stands for winter, not weight, and the test temperature varies with the grade you are qualifying for.

Not according to my understanding. The "W" is commonly considered to mean "Winter", but it just specifies that it's a multi-viscosity oil.

Originally Posted by oilteq

When base oil breaks down, whether synthetic or petroleum oil, it gets thicker, not thinner.

Again not my understanding. They start with the lower viscosity oil, and add additives to make it equivalent to the thicker viscosity when hot. As the oil breaks down, the oil viscosity tends to fall somewhere in between the two ratings - it acts like a thinner oil...

But I could be wrong...

[jhnmdahl]

The W does stand for winter, and although the second number reflects viscosity at 100 degrees celsius, the winter number reflects a temperature at which a certain viscosity is reached rather than a viscosity. For example, a 0w oil is tested at -30f, a 5w at -25f and a 10w is tested at -20f.

[vyuen]

Originally Posted by Icedog_16

Tim, just a question... Why then is 5W30 used in the 2ZZ in the Celica? Same engine, different placement in the vehicle, but hauling around more weight in the Celica, and we have dual oil coolers. I've never figured that out. You'd think that if the viscocity is so critical, the same engine should require the same viscocity in either car, right? Just trying to make sense of it.

I've wondered what the same engine in the celica requires as well and fundamentally it should be the same. That Lotus specifies a slightly heavier weight oil maybe due to the higher engine temps since our engine is mounted midship and there is less cooling.

I believe only the Exige S comes with dual oil coolers as standard spec (other than maybe the new supercharged elise).

[jhnmdahl]

Oilteq, I share your concern regarding phosphorous from ZDDP causing catalytic converter damange and emissions problems, mostly because I've been using Amsoil in my cars, which has higher ZDDP levels than current SAE service classes allow (I believe it's a PAO or alkene synthetic base stock). I decided that protecting the engine is a higher priority than protecting the catalytic converter, though, when I decided to make the change.

John

[jhnmdahl]

Originally Posted by vyuen

I've wondered what the same engine in the celica requires as well and fundamentally it should be the same. That Lotus specifies a slightly heavier weight oil maybe due to the higher engine temps since our engine is mounted midship and there is less cooling.

I believe only the Exige S comes with dual oil coolers as standard spec (other than maybe the new supercharged elise).

The specified oil for a single engine can vary with intended use, with a change in redline rpm, or for other reasons. If you bought a GT3 version of the Exige with 270HP, Lotus might well recommend a 20W-50 instead of 5W-40 to minimize engine wear, and recommend oil changes every 500 miles. Put the same engine in a Corolla, and now fuel economy, desired service interval, and other factors may dictate a 5W-30 that gets changed every 7500 miles. That's one of the reasons it's hard to say any one weight is the optimal or perfect weight for an engine, or even a particular car. That said, Lotus seems particularly likely to make a sound recommendation based on the engine and type of car, and although I use an unusual oil I do buy a 5W-40 weight (at least during warranty).

John

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by vyuen

I believe only the Exige S comes with dual oil coolers as standard spec (other than maybe the new supercharged Elise).

No. all early Elises came with two oil coolers. Lotus changed that mid-year, and after that, base models came with one cooler, and Sport Pack (and later Track Pack) cars came with two coolers.

In any case, the Elise/Exige has at least one cooler, where as Toyotas with the engine don't have any air to oil coolers.

[oilteq]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

Not according to my understanding. The "W" is commonly considered to mean "Winter", but it just specifies that it's a multi-viscosity oil.

Again not my understanding. They start with the lower viscosity oil, and add additives to make it equivalent to the thicker viscosity when hot. As the oil breaks down, the oil viscosity tends to fall somewhere in between the two ratings - it acts like a thinner oil...

But I could be wrong...

W stands for winter. SAE 20W is a straight vis oil. SAE 20 is the same vis at 100C, but has no cold vis requirements.

Right, we start with a lower vis oil and add additives (polymers). This comment about base oil thickening was in response to an earlier incorrect post that said Group III base oils shear. Polymers can break down (shear), thinning the oil. But the base oil, the lower vis oil we started with, thickens as it breaks down (oxidizes). So, you are correct, and a broken down 5W-40 could potentially become a 10W-30.

[ddurham]

Originally Posted by oilteq

Let me add to the confusion. A 0W-40, 5W-40, 25W-40, and all the other xW-40 oils have to fall into the same kinematic viscosity window at 100 degrees C. The W stands for winter, not weight, and the test temperature varies with the grade you are qualifying for. If my memory is right, the viscosity in the Cold Crank Simulator is taken at –20 C for a 10W-x oils. So, at temperatures above freezing, the difference between a 0W-40 and 5W-40 is insignificant.

In looking through the old posts I was impressed at the amount of knowledge, but some of it was not quite right. Group IV base oils include everything not in the other groups, which includes synthetic esters (polyol esters, monoesters, diesters, etc) and low quality naphthenic base oils no ethical person would consider for motor oils.

I have seen the literature that says “made with this or that synthetic ester.” I believe it, but I believe only a relatively small portion of the oil is synthetic ester. Esters typically have poor cold temperature flow properties, low viscosity indices, and they will attack your seals and eat the paint off of the inside of your oil pan. Well-formulated synthetic oils use 15% or so synthetic ester blended with PAO synthetic base oils.

When base oil breaks down, whether synthetic or petroleum oil, it gets thicker, not thinner. Viscosity drops when polymers or dispersant additives, but mostly polymers, shear. Polymers are also called Viscosity Index Improvers, and they are plastic dissolved into oil. Many of them are designed to shear, at least temporarily, to provide better fuel economy. I do not use them.

By the way, I do not like the current gasoline oil specifications, API SM or just that starburst symbol. A few years ago, Ford tore apart some plugged catalytic converters and found that phosphorus formed a glass like deposit on the surfaces. The industry then tried to develop a test to show an oil’s tendency to form deposits, but they failed because the test was not repeatable. After spending a few hundred thousand dollars, they said, “screw this—we will set a chemical limit of 1,200 ppm.” Later they lowered it to 1,000. In the most recent round of specifications, they lowered it to 800 ppm.

Phosphorus comes from zinc phosphates (ZDDP) used as anti-wear additives. Most cars have rolling cam followers, so it is not a big deal. Most DOHC engines, I assume including the one in the Elise, have sliding cam followers. Poke around the web and you will find there have been numerous flat tappet cam failures with SM oils.

I will not be running extended drains in my Elise or starting it at sub-zero temperatures, so if I had to choose between base oil and antiwear additives, I would not have to think it over. My contention is that if your engine does not burn oil, not much phosphorus from the oil will get to the cat anyway.

Blaine

The lack of anti-wear additives in new oils is probably why elises are now eating the high speed lobes on intake cams since the high speed cam portion of the rocker does not have a roller. They lowered the additive levels to save the cat, but it's ironic that the worn cam causes a high speed misfire that usually wipes out the cat also.

[CalBears92]

Originally Posted by ddurham

The lack of anti-wear additives in new oils is probably why elises are now eating the high speed lobes on intake cams since the high speed cam portion of the rocker does not have a roller. They lowered the additive levels to save the cat, but it's ironic that the worn cam causes a high speed misfire that usually wipes out the cat also.

I'm beginning to feel this is the reason why Lotus USA is recommending the 5W40 instead of the 0W40. Perhaps there is something in the 5W additives that is not in the 0W

[jlj3394]

Originally Posted by CalBears92

I'm beginning to feel this is the reason why Lotus USA is recommending the 5W40 instead of the 0W40. Perhaps there is something in the 5W additives that is not in the 0W

In any case, I recommend Mobil1 5w40 syn diesel oil. Same oil, more additives.

[apexdc]

I seem to recall that Lotus intitally had some durability concerns on the Toyota engine and ultimately decided the issues were largely tied to oil temperatures. Is it possible that the change in oil spec relative to the original application occurred at that time/

[sandsmuseum]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

It's been said many times, but here it is again...

Lotus is adament that ONLY 5w40 synthetic oil is to be used for street usage. 0w40, 10w 40, 0w50, etc. are not acceptable. Use other weight oils at your own risk...

Like Tim, I want to use the right stuff while under warranty. His quote bears repeating and so I am.

However it is increasingly difficult to find the right stuff. Previously I posted that Oil Changers will sell you oil to carry out. Havoline (Texaco) referred me to them in 2004. Since then two things have happened. Oil Changers refuses to sell oil for carry out, and Texaco got bought by Chevron. (I wonder if the formulation of the oil has changed materially and if Lotus still wants to recommend it as a result of the sale?)

A email from Havoline, now Chevron, points to a local(?) distributor in Watsonville, about an hours drive. Too far to drive to get oil. However the distributor is willing to stock our oil at Valley Oil in Mountain View. (650-967-2253) Cost is $35 a case.

Michael

[ZAMMY1]

shell rotella, 5W-40 $16+ /gallon, Walmart.
walmarts are fairly common.
sam

[jhnmdahl]

Originally Posted by CalBears92

I'm beginning to feel this is the reason why Lotus USA is recommending the 5W40 instead of the 0W40. Perhaps there is something in the 5W additives that is not in the 0W

Their reason for recommending only that specific weight and brand is that it's the only one they've tested with the Toyota engine (and there's no incentive for them to test a bunch of others). It was clearly an informed choice, but they aren't so much saying "Mobil1 0W-40 will be worse for your engine" as they are saying "we simply haven't tested Mobil 1 0W-40".

And yes, I did email them and ask

John

[RI_RS4]

This engine appears to beat oil all to hell. As evidenced by some of the camshaft/rocker arm failures. As a result, an oil that flows well and has good wear and high temperature performance over the life of the oil is a must.

I've had experience with oils in the Audi RS4 V8 engine, which has an 8250 rpm redline, and beats oils to death. Based on that experience I worked with a professional independent Tribologist, Terry Dyson, and a high end formulator, Renewable Lubricants, to have a balls to the walls 5W-40 oil formulated. It is now marketed and called:

Renewable Lubricants Bio-Synthetic Super High Performance 5W40 HD

Renewable Lubricants Bio-Synthetic Super High Performance 5W40 HD
Renewable Lubricants
Racing Oils


It is an all out multiviscosity 5W40 street/racing oil that has been proven on the road and on the track. Quite a few Audi enthusiasts have switched to this oil because of it's exceptional high temperature performance and significantly reduced wear. It was specifically designed to reduce camshaft, follower, and cam chain wear, while tolerating the high temperatures of high performance engines.

I've gotten interested in the Elise, because I'm looking at putting together a nice track car for myself. I think that given the issues some of these engines seem to have, that it would make sense to use the best oil possible. I have no interest in this oil, however I did help develop it. All of the Renewable Lubricants oils have exceptional performance and quality.

[GregD]

After reading all the oil related threads on lotustalk, I found nothing decisive to make me want to get one of the various top oils over another, so I decided to do some research for myself. After checking the spec sheets of the various top candidates, Mobil, Amsoil, Havoline, Castrol, Valvoline, Royal Purple, and Redline, I still didn't find anything convincing enough to make me want to buy one versus the other. So I made a few calls.

First, I called Lotus USA, and spoke to their tech guy, who was very nice and helpful within the limitations of his experience and what it is proper for him to say. Basically, as you would expect, he said the Havoline synthetic 5W-40 is the oil that Lotus has done all of their testing with, and that they know is fine. He also said that Castrol synthetic 5W-40 was acceptable, and would not invalidate any warranty. He stated that the oil must be a synthetic 5W-40 to maintain the warranty with no questions, and that other oils may or may not be an issue. I specifically asked him about Mobil 1 0W-40, since I personally think it's a great oil, but he recommended against using it since it was outside of Lotus's specs.

While checking the various oil companies data sheets, Valvoline's Synpower HST stood out with what looked like some very impressive specs. The specs were quite different from the non-HST Synpower. When I checked, no one had Synpower HST available, so I called Valvoline. They told me that Synpower HST is a special formula made to certain manufacturers' specs like MB and Porsche, and is not available on the retail market. Apparently, only dealers can get it, and only in bulk drum quantities. Also, as far as the guy I was talking to knew; they have no plans to market it through retail outlets in the future.

So in the end, I decided to go with the Lotus recommended Havoline synthetic 5W-40 since the difference in specs between the different oils wasn't enough for any to stand out, there would be no questions asked from a warranty perspective, and the price was right. I found the local distributor through the following link http://www.texaco.com/worldwide/nort...er_locator.asp which I found on one of the threads here on Lotustalk. The price through them in 6 quart case quantities was $4.70 per quart.

The local distributor's service was outstanding! They delivered the oil directly to my house the next day with no charge for delivery. They also faxed the data sheet for the oil to me, which is a little bit different from what was previously posted in this thread, so I've attached that, and the Valvoline Synpower data sheet as well.