How rugged is the transmission in the Elise......

[mtrain]

I used to own a Toyota Celica with the same 2z engine that the Elise shares {I know that Lotus tweeked it just a bit for a few more ponies}, but from a few years on the Celica forums I know that the Toyota 6 speed transmission wouldn't stand too much HP for very long.

Im speaking of forced induction, turbo's etc. Is the Elise transmission more beefy in key area's making it more reliable in higher hp applications than the Celica..........

[Demonized]

Originally Posted by mtrain

I used to own a Toyota Celica with the same 2z engine that the Elise shares {I know that Lotus tweeked it just a bit for a few more ponies}, but from a few years on the Celica forums I know that the Toyota 6 speed transmission wouldn't stand too much HP for very long.

Im speaking of forced induction, turbo's etc. Is the Elise transmission more beefy in key area's making it more reliable in higher hp applications than the Celica..........

The engine is identical, the only difference is the ECU programming.

The transmission is identical, the only difference is the car weighs alot less. (In terms of Quality)

[ZJChaser]

Originally Posted by Demonized

The engine is identical, the only difference is the ECU programming.

The transmission is identical, the only difference is the car weighs alot less.

weighs less but tends to get a good bit more traction....

[mtrain]

So were talking about the same frail tranny that the Celica wears........I know that was the weak link of many a high powered Celica.

I think the problem was {speaking from the Celica websites} that currently there was no one making a stronger replacement transmission yet.

I have seen/read about some fast Elise's on this site that had over 400hp with a turbo setup, I wonder how the tranny is holding out?

[cstetter]

Originally Posted by mtrain

So were talking about the same frail tranny that the Celica wears........I know that was the weak link of many a high powered Celica.

I think the problem was {speaking from the Celica websites} that currently there was no one making a stronger replacement transmission yet.

I have seen/read about some fast Elise's on this site that had over 400hp with a turbo setup, I wonder how the tranny is holding out?

That car now has ~500hp and is not using the stock transmission at all. Do a search for dual-charger on this site...

[Demonized]

The 400+whp Elise (Owned by Frank, Ronin) is using a E153 1995 MR2 Turbo Transmission.

A few are using the same, or going to use the same set-up.. at close to those power levels.

The Stock Celica GT-S Transmission is a C60, the one in the Lotus is a euro version, named a C64, which has slightly different gearing of 6th.

[mtrain]

You know Ive always thought that the whole MR2 2.0l turbo engine, and tranny would be a good swap for the Elise since the engine is already made for boost.........I'll have to check, and find out if the MR2 turbo engine has forged, or hyperpathetic pistons.

[nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by Demonized

The 400+whp Elise (Owned by Frank, Ronin) is using a E153 1995 MR2 Turbo Transmission.

A few are using the same, or going to use the same set-up.. at close to those power levels.

The Stock Celica GT-S Transmission is a C60, the one in the Lotus is a euro version, named a C64, which has slightly different gearing of 6th.

What kind of mods need to be done to use the MR2 tranny?

[fzust]

My car is running about 430HP with the Celica GT trans, but it is identical to the 6 speed except gear ratios. I blew up the pinion gear in one about a year ago. Since then I built the motor and killed all the synchros except 2nd with Vibration from the lightenend drive train. If you are going to track it or drag it you might want to look at the E153.

[308tr6]

For street applications and maybe a random track day now and then, is there a consensus for a reasonable limit of horsepower mated to the stock elise/exige transmission?

[MaineLotus]

290hp

[dmh]

Originally Posted by 308tr6

For street applications and maybe a random track day now and then, is there a consensus for a reasonable limit of horsepower mated to the stock elise/exige transmission?

Consensus...again.

Originally Posted by MaineLotus

290hp

290hp what? HP limit of the C60/4? If so, what component(s) and how did you come to that number?
You can damage a transmission in a myriad of ways with less hp than 290.

We've rebuilt close to a dozen units now using Kaaz gears and what we attribute the breakage to is plain-and-simple misuse, i.e., inexperienced road racing enthusiasts damaging synchros and teeth through poor shifting skills/habits. What we don't see is drag racers with high horsepower engines so I cannot comment on those issues.

[Bender Rodríguez]

Originally Posted by fzust

My car is running about 430HP with the Celica GT trans, but it is identical to the 6 speed except gear ratios. I blew up the pinion gear in one about a year ago. Since then I built the motor and killed all the synchros except 2nd with Vibration from the lightenend drive train. If you are going to track it or drag it you might want to look at the E153.

Have you ever thought of using the E153 in your car? I know your well under the min weight in your class, though you would loose the ability to balance your car the way you want. It could just be easier than dealing with drivetrain failures. Having said that I’m uber jealous how light your car is!

[Bender Rodríguez]

Originally Posted by nsxmatt

What kind of mods need to be done to use the MR2 tranny?

Step 1: Take the whole thing apart
Step 2: Mill 3/4' out of the bell housing
Step 3: Weld an aluminum plate and machine it to the 2ZZ pattern
Step 4: Re-assemble

Disassembling it myself this cost me like $900- $1000

[dereklburt]

Just a comment. So far my car has been fine with the stock transmission but I run different gear ratios as it is the European trans. That is with 355whp. Not as much as fzust is putting out in his but I also know that he runs Very Wide slicks on his car with 430hp. I can't imagine the extreme traction and hard launches help matters. Then again, his car is lighter than mine and apparently he has taken out all of his gears, so that would negate the launch being the only issue.

I have heard that wheel hop is to blame as well as how you shift but I honestly do not know the answer to that. I do have the polyurethane engine mounts and a Lesco shifter. According to Matt at Monkeywrench, the stock trans will hold together at 500whp if you don't constantly beat it. He runs the stock trans in his 500whp MR2 and 555whp Celica. He also admits that the trans is the weak point in the car as with their 666hp+ Celica, they were going through transmissions.

Matt mentioned to me that they are working on a solution to the trans issue but I am thinking that it might be to use the older MR2 trans like Bender and others use. However, he would not say for sure and when I commented about how it was nice to have the taller gear ratio 6 speed, I got the impression that they were looking at some type of 6 speed set up as well? Maybe he was just trying to mislead me. I guess they are going to have something in the spring but I have no idea what it is exactly or what type of price etc.

I do have to say, I would like the comfort of knowing that the trans would hold any power I throw at it, but I also really like the tall gearing of the European 6 speed. It sure is nice to be able to cruise along at 80mph and only turn 3000rpm. Being able to hit about 52mph in 1st is also nice for smaller autocross courses. Right now I have a theoretical top speed of 224mph. With some more horsepower, and downforce so I don't fly away, it would be possible. (not that I would ever find somewhere to go that fast)

So far, I have not had any issues, Knock on wood.

[MaineLotus]

Originally Posted by dmh

290hp what? HP limit of the C60/4? If so, what component(s) and how did you come to that number?
You can damage a transmission in a myriad of ways with less hp than 290.

We've rebuilt close to a dozen units now using Kaaz gears and what we attribute the breakage to is plain-and-simple misuse, i.e., inexperienced road racing enthusiasts damaging synchros and teeth through poor shifting skills/habits. What we don't see is drag racers with high horsepower engines so I cannot comment on those issues.

Of course there are many variables and it's subjective - what is an acceptable life - 10k, 20k, 30k miles? He asked for a number and 290 is probably a safe estimate. Some have ruined their gearbox with less and some with more. When I sold my C64 gearbox last year, I was contacted by several people that were on their 2nd and 3rd gearbox - all had less than 290hp, so maybe my estimate is too high? BTW, Lotus quotes 176ft/lbs as the safe max.

Originally Posted by dmh

We've rebuilt close to a dozen units now using Kaaz gears and what we attribute the breakage to is plain-and-simple misuse

Sorry to hear the Kaaz gears are also breaking. I didn't think they were going to be any stronger. I heard from someone else that broke the Kaaz gearset, you're not alone.

[dmh]

Originally Posted by MaineLotus

Of course there are many variables and it's subjective - what is an acceptable life - 10k, 20k, 30k miles? He asked for a number and 290 is probably a safe estimate. Some have ruined their gearbox with less and some with more. When I sold my C64 gearbox last year, I was contacted by several people that were on their 2nd and 3rd gearbox - all had less than 290hp, so maybe my estimate is too high? BTW, Lotus quotes 176ft/lbs as the safe max.

Sorry to hear the Kaaz gears are also breaking. I didn't think they were going to be any stronger. I heard from someone else that broke the Kaaz gearset, you're not alone.

I don't think you quite understand my points...you can break any gearbox in numerous ways, HP just being one of them...mis-shifting, standing starts, wheel-hopping, improper assembly, etc.

Why do you feel compelled to dispense a 290hp safe estimate? Do you road race/track your car with a C60/4? Do you rebuild them? Do you have a direct association with Toyota and the engineers assigned to the C60/4 transmission? (Lotus had nothing to do with the design of C60/4 gearbox.)

What makes you think the Kaaz gears aren't stronger? Intuition? Laboratory and/or real world testing?

If you are referring to Tom Hughes’s failure are you certain of the cause? It could be attributable to other factors than weak Kaaz gears.

[MaineLotus]

Originally Posted by dmh

I don't think you quite understand my points...you can break any gearbox in numerous ways, HP just being one of them...mis-shifting, standing starts, wheel-hopping, improper assembly, etc.

I understand fully, Don - reading comprehension, see my previous post - "Of course there are many variables and it's subjective"

Originally Posted by dmh

Why do you feel compelled to dispense a 290hp safe estimate?

Again, you need to read my previous post - "He asked for a number and 290 is probably a safe estimate. Some have ruined their gearbox with less and some with more." Don, don't get so upset, it's just an estimate and one persons opinion. Do you have any Kaaz laboratory tests to share with us or is that a DMH secret?

Originally Posted by dmh

If you are referring to Tom Hughes’s failure are you certain of the cause? It could be attributable to other factors than weak Kaaz gears.

I don't know Tom Hughes, I guess there have multiple Kaaz gearset failures.

[dmh]

Originally Posted by MaineLotus

I understand fully, Don - reading comprehension, see my previous post - "Of course there are many variables and it's subjective"



Again, you need to read my previous post - "He asked for a number and 290 is probably a safe estimate. Some have ruined their gearbox with less and some with more." Don, don't get so upset, it's just an estimate and one persons opinion. Do you have any Kaaz laboratory tests to share with us or is that a DMH secret?



I don't know Tom Hughes, I guess there have multiple Kaaz gearset failures.

Bottom line: Why do you feel compelled to give an answer to a question you know nothing about?

[MaineLotus]

Having dissassembled both the E153 and C64, I have some knowledge to share. Never proclaimed to be an expert, but I have an opinion and believe the 290 number is reasonably, with average use (as indicated by the original poster). Will my knowledge be adequate for you?, probably not.