Really Light Stuff Water / Methanol Injection

[lt0302]

so here is the skinny on mine: I have an 05 Elise with R/K supercharger but no cooler. How will this affect my install? If this work with what I have......how do I get one?

[aerosim]

Originally Posted by Thomasio

P.S. It will take your above-average technician several hours to duplicate the Lotus-specific customizations that I have made to the kit. I'll bet that would cost more than $110. For the do-it-yourselfer, it will save you at least twice that many hours and many jars of aspirin.

Uh, several hours to lengthen an RJ45 cable and get a T for the plastic tubing? Maybe if your technician is Hass.

Sorry I just don't buy the "The nozzle size and placement have been developed with extensive data logging" or the fact that it's worth more than the Perrin kit.

I don't sell Aquamist or any competing products. In fact, I don't understand why you don't sell the HSF1 or HSF5 kits. They're much nicer than the branded kits and have a much better pump.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by aerosim

Uh, several hours to lengthen an RJ45 cable and get a T for the plastic tubing? Maybe if your technician is Hass.

Sorry I just don't buy the "The nozzle size and placement have been developed with extensive data logging" or the fact that it's worth more than the Perrin kit.

I don't sell Aquamist or any competing products. In fact, I don't understand why you don't sell the HSF1 or HSF5 kits. They're much nicer than the branded kits and have a much better pump.

I have worked extensively with ERL's engineer to develop the kit, there is no better solution. Not from ERL/Aquamist, not from someone else.

If you would like to call me, I'll explain in detail the modifications to the kit. I am sure that you will agree that the R&D and the additional parts are a value at $110.

Perhaps you are like me and enjoy the challenge of R&D, in which case you would have more fun installing the Perrin kit. (It's a great kit, that's why I chose it to base the rls kit off of.) If you are like most other people who want a kit that is ready to go specifically for your car, then go with the rls kit.

Either way, nobody is getting rich, nobody is getting taken advantage of... it's all cool. For you it may not be a value, for others it is.

By the way, the pump in the rls kit *is* superior to the other pumps that you mentions for our application. If, on the other hand, you have a 350 hp+ application, you will require a high flow pump like the ones that you mentioned. The pump that the rls kit uses is perfect for the injector duty-cycle progressive metering system that the kit uses. The other pumps are not ideal.

And to repeat: if you would like the Perrin-type kit minus the Lotus additions and modifications, I'm happy to sell that to you for the Perrin price.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by lt0302

so here is the skinny on mine: I have an 05 Elise with R/K supercharger but no cooler. How will this affect my install? If this work with what I have......how do I get one?

PM me for my phone number and we will discuss.

[Thomasio]

An interesting data log that I took yesterday...

Very unscientific, just shown for discussion. The runs were done on a back road, track data logs will follow in September.

Four 2nd gear pulls from about 10 mph to 60 mph followed by four second gear pulls with the rls water/methanol injection.

The green lines are the intake air temperature. The top green line is without water/methanol injection, the lower green line is with water/methanol injection.

This is with a dual injection point configuration: primary injection point is at the intercooler output tank, secondary injection point (with a very small nozzle) is directed at the *outside* of the intercooler core. This explains why the IAT's continue to drop after each run when the water/methanol injection is activated. The water/methanol continues to evaporate from the core and cool IATs.



Speed traces (red) don't overlap perfectly, I was going back and forth on a closed section of road.

Testing notes: rls Intercooler on all runs, rls Injection on last three runs: 50% distilled water, 50% methanol (by weight), ambient 80 degrees F.

[Thomasio]

Here is a graph that shows the affect that the rls Injection has on the intake air temperatures (IAT).

The red traces (solid and dashed) show the air temperature before the intercooler. The blue traces (solid and dashed) show the air temperature after the intercooler.

The dashed lines are without the rls Injection. The solid lines are with the rls Injection. The dashed lines (no rls Injection) have been overlaid onto the solid lines (with rls Injection).

The weather is 88 degrees F. Eight runs were made to 60 mph, in 2nd gear, before recording the runs that you see here.

As you can see, the rls Injection is taking another 10 to 30+ degrees out of the IAT.

[Thomasio]

[Thomasio]

[ace996]

I bet your AFRs are much safer with the smaller pulley, too...

Great system, can't wait to hear the track logs!!!!

Be good,
TomK

[MNlotus]

im kinda confused about water/meth injection. does it increase horse power? and where are you injected this and why?

[MattGold]

Just to throw another hat into the ring...

AEM just released a Meth Injection Kit, again, like the Perrin it's not vehicle specific, but may be worth a look:



AEM PR: HD Water/Methanol Injection System | RPMWare


Price to consumer will probably be right around $500, and I believe they also offer a smaller capacity tank as well (save room and weight).


-M

[MattGold]

Originally Posted by MNlotus

im kinda confused about water/meth injection. does it increase horse power? and where are you injected this and why?

The Meth itself does not increase horsepower (go ahead and debate it), however it lowers intake temp which in turn add some HP, and it also acts as an agent which increases a fuels "octane" and prevents detonation.

In other words, Race Fuel can be substituted for 93+Meth.

The Methanol is injected into the Intercooler/Intake plumbing, and can act as a replacement for an Intercooler by providing a cooler intake charge along with the above stated benefits.

More detailed info here:
Water injection (engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

-M

[MNlotus]

so do you have to keep refilling some container with methanol? where do you get this and is it expensive?

Originally Posted by MattGold

The Meth itself does not increase horsepower (go ahead and debate it), however it lowers intake temp which in turn add some HP, and it also acts as an agent which increases a fuels "octane" and prevents detonation.

In other words, Race Fuel can be substituted for 93+Meth.

The Methanol is injected into the Intercooler/Intake plumbing, and can act as a replacement for an Intercooler by providing a cooler intake charge along with the above stated benefits.

More detailed info here:
Water injection (engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

-M

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by MNlotus

so do you have to keep refilling some container with methanol? where do you get this and is it expensive?

Yes, depending on where you live and how you drive you can use anything from 100% distilled water to 100% methanol. I use a 50/50 mix (by weight).

Since windshield washer fluid is usually water and methanol, you can use 50/50 mix in your wiper fluid reservoir to feed both your wipers and your injection system.

With the Lotus wiper fluid reservoir, it will typically last you equal to a full tank of gasoline on the track... fill it when you fill up with gas. On the street, it lasts for weeks of normal driving depending on the mass of your right foot.

Methanol is about $3/gallon around here, you can get it from race shops. Never put methanol in a container that has had gasoline or oil in it. The hydrocarbons aren't good for the pump internals.

[Thomasio]

I did some data acquisition at Autohbahn raceway in Joliet, IL yesterday.

This graph shows charge air temperature, both pre and post intercooler. This data is after 20+ minutes of full out running, and shows the maximum temperatures achieved in a 30 minute session.

Pre-intercooler charge air temperatures are the red and dashed-red curves (top two curves).

Post-intercooler charge air temperatures are the blue and dashed-black curves.

The dashed-black curve is without water/methanol injection, the solid blue curve is with water/methanol injection.

As you can see, the rls Intercooler alone took out up to 100 degrees F. The rls Injection took up to an additional 30+ degrees F out of the temperature.

[shay2nak]

dayum, maybe i should have gone with the meth kit.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by shay2nak

dayum, maybe i should have gone with the meth kit.

You can still do it, just won't be as easy.

You would need to relocate your Bosch IAT sensor (rls Tubes w/ sensor relocate option) and drill and tap your intercooler's output side end tank to accept the nozzle adapter. Oh, and seal up the holes that remain from the original IAT sensor location.

It may seem tempting to inject the water/methanol at the input-side end tank of the intercooler, but it won't give you the same performance. Let the intercooler take as much heat out as it can, then use the water/methanol to improve that further.

[trappertrevor]

is the methanol kit still available im in cali

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by trappertrevor

is the methanol kit still available im in cali

Yes they are, feel free to PM me.

[Mag]

Just installed the RLS WI kit with RLS IC/pipes, roof scoop unfettled, dual SPAL push fans inside shroud. Using 100% distilled water, no meth.

posted non WI data on a "flow" thread in this forum. If interested in how data is being aquired and for basis of comparison, please see that post. Some initial results.

75 °F / 24 °C
Humidity: 61%

2 pulls out of 6 I usually do. max temp went to about pre IC 85~90C, IAT remained at a consistant 40~43C with WI on and 57C+ off, IC fans on whole time. That's a minimal 15C, and WI is supposed to be less effective in cooler weather. I bet if I did 6 pulls it difference would have increased… Will go to the track in one week. Aim to do some actual data logs then.

Normal milld driving saw low to mid 30C (note outside ambient temp is 24C). from low 40s to mid 30s the IAT dropped really fast with the WI, you can see the IAT go down soon as the pedal to the metal is released.