Lotus Forum Lotus Forum

Go Back   LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Lotus Discussions > Powertrain (Engine, Transmission, etc)

LotusTalk.com is the premier Lotus Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-19-2009, 11:14 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Serebo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,862
Images: 4
Thumbs up Reconfiguring engine position (180 degrees) to increase torque (pics)

Obviously, Lotus got the engine position all wrong. Anyone who has seen the thing moving in the engine bay knows we're losing torque.

So, on this Saturday I dragged Allen from The LPL out of his place and asked him to open the shop to do the job. Not sure why he has this odd look on his face, but he's open to the idea.

Took a while to pull the engine, but we got it! Here we are lowering it back in to the CORRECT position. Why didn't the Lotus engineers think of this?!

Dyno to follow. I'll keep you posted. BTW, we did add an extra countershaft to the the transmission so it spins the right way. (saw that question coming)
Attached Images
 
__________________
Matte Black, Sport, Touring, ***** intake (TBA), RAC Mono wheels, Painted Shift knob, smoked turn signals, Alpine SPS 6.5" rear speakers, MB Quarts, JVC Nav, Starshield, LBH exhaust, Dpic perf. gauge, Custom true HID projectors, GUT wing and splitter, Mesh side pods, Sector111 harness bar and 4-point harness, Lotus Sport Ohlins double-adjustable suspension, swaybar, '06 LED tailights, Toda flywheel, Lotusport interior.
Serebo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 11:20 AM   #2 (permalink)
NOT ßANNED!
 
Demonized's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,171
I'm confused.
__________________
2005 Saffron Yellow Elise, Katana Supercharger, LSS Wheels, 2Bular exhaust & cat, Difflow 7 Element diffuser, Cup Airbox, Ohlins double adjustable coilovers, Dual Oil Coolers, RTD Brace, Moroso Oil Pan, MicroMirror, Manly Engine Mounts, Odyssey PC680 & RLS Bracket, Saikou Michi OCC, CF Scoops, CF Bootlid, CF Front Lip.
Demonized is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 11:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
Pres perfututum futūtor
 
RoadDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
If it's just the engine movement, why not just go with stiffer mounts?
__________________
"Really, you want to maintain a semblance of professionalism since you represent Lotus. Me... I don't need to. Bite me." -Randy

"...now that some of our wannabe competitors are beginnning (sic) to get to where we were three years ago..." -Charlie

RoadDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 11:27 AM   #4 (permalink)
Back to Basics
 
E_Swift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 508
This is interesting, but I am not sure why you would be expecting any measurable performance gains.

Instead, I would expect:

1) engine bay temps will be higher, probably not significant, however your back will be a lot warmer and you will need to foil the passenger compartment closeout panel
2) heat rejection needs to radiator and oil coolers will be higher
3) Exhaust will be longer and heavier than stock
4) Oil cooler lines will be slightly longer than stock, but probably counteracted by shorter coolant hose run.

The instantaneous "losses" you see of torque of the engine moving about the engine bay may be frightening, but I don't believe this will be measurable within the transient accuracy of whatever wheel dyno you will be using...
E_Swift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 11:30 AM   #5 (permalink)
NOT ßANNED!
 
Demonized's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadDad View Post
If it's just the engine movement, why not just go with stiffer mounts?
+1
__________________
2005 Saffron Yellow Elise, Katana Supercharger, LSS Wheels, 2Bular exhaust & cat, Difflow 7 Element diffuser, Cup Airbox, Ohlins double adjustable coilovers, Dual Oil Coolers, RTD Brace, Moroso Oil Pan, MicroMirror, Manly Engine Mounts, Odyssey PC680 & RLS Bracket, Saikou Michi OCC, CF Scoops, CF Bootlid, CF Front Lip.
Demonized is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 11:48 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Serebo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,862
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadDad View Post
If it's just the engine movement, why not just go with stiffer mounts?
It's not so much about movement, as it is directional momentum, so even if we go with stiffer mounts, that forward energy will be lost.
__________________
Matte Black, Sport, Touring, ***** intake (TBA), RAC Mono wheels, Painted Shift knob, smoked turn signals, Alpine SPS 6.5" rear speakers, MB Quarts, JVC Nav, Starshield, LBH exhaust, Dpic perf. gauge, Custom true HID projectors, GUT wing and splitter, Mesh side pods, Sector111 harness bar and 4-point harness, Lotus Sport Ohlins double-adjustable suspension, swaybar, '06 LED tailights, Toda flywheel, Lotusport interior.
Serebo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 11:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Serebo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,862
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by E_Swift View Post
The instantaneous "losses" you see of torque of the engine moving about the engine bay may be frightening, but I don't believe this will be measurable within the transient accuracy of whatever wheel dyno you will be using...
Before we started, we hooked a measuring device (Spring and produce scale) to the engine, and the forward movement of the engine in the bay measured about 40 ft lbs. That's substantial, no?
__________________
Matte Black, Sport, Touring, ***** intake (TBA), RAC Mono wheels, Painted Shift knob, smoked turn signals, Alpine SPS 6.5" rear speakers, MB Quarts, JVC Nav, Starshield, LBH exhaust, Dpic perf. gauge, Custom true HID projectors, GUT wing and splitter, Mesh side pods, Sector111 harness bar and 4-point harness, Lotus Sport Ohlins double-adjustable suspension, swaybar, '06 LED tailights, Toda flywheel, Lotusport interior.
Serebo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 11:55 AM   #8 (permalink)
Pres perfututum futūtor
 
RoadDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serebo1 View Post
It's not so much about movement, as it is directional momentum, so even if we go with stiffer mounts, that forward energy will be lost.
Of course. What was I thinking? I'll shut up now.
__________________
"Really, you want to maintain a semblance of professionalism since you represent Lotus. Me... I don't need to. Bite me." -Randy

"...now that some of our wannabe competitors are beginnning (sic) to get to where we were three years ago..." -Charlie

RoadDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 11:56 AM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 186
You guys are morons. Serebo is joking.
Corvus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 12:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
Pres perfututum futūtor
 
RoadDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
You guys are Mormons. Serebo is joking.
__________________
"Really, you want to maintain a semblance of professionalism since you represent Lotus. Me... I don't need to. Bite me." -Randy

"...now that some of our wannabe competitors are beginnning (sic) to get to where we were three years ago..." -Charlie

RoadDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 12:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
Pres perfututum futūtor
 
RoadDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
I just got a PM explaining the theory to me. Here's a link to the info that apparently started the thinking process.

180 degree transverse engine turn increases torque

Here's the pertinent stuff from the link:
wherein the stationary convex surface comprises a contour expressible in polar coordinates as R+(2*R sin(D/2)/(K*cos(D/2)+sin(D/2))), wherein K is a constant between 0.27 and 4.0, R is a length of a radius, and D is an angle of rotation of the radius about a point of rotation.

I think it's legit.
__________________
"Really, you want to maintain a semblance of professionalism since you represent Lotus. Me... I don't need to. Bite me." -Randy

"...now that some of our wannabe competitors are beginnning (sic) to get to where we were three years ago..." -Charlie

RoadDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 12:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
Back to Basics
 
E_Swift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
You guys are morons. Serebo is joking.
My Bad. This thread is actually just really REALLY funny.
E_Swift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 12:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Serebo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,862
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadDad View Post
I just got a PM explaining the theory to me. Here's a link to the info that apparently started the thinking process.

180 degree transverse engine turn increases torque

Here's the pertinent stuff from the link:
wherein the stationary convex surface comprises a contour expressible in polar coordinates as R+(2*R sin(D/2)/(K*cos(D/2)+sin(D/2))), wherein K is a constant between 0.27 and 4.0, R is a length of a radius, and D is an angle of rotation of the radius about a point of rotation.

I think it's legit.
Exactly. Thanks, RoadDad. Every great innovator or thinker-outside-the-box is ridiculed until what they're doing proves to work, right? We've hit a slight roadblock - the repositioning of the charcoal canister. Anyone ever considered moving that thing?
__________________
Matte Black, Sport, Touring, ***** intake (TBA), RAC Mono wheels, Painted Shift knob, smoked turn signals, Alpine SPS 6.5" rear speakers, MB Quarts, JVC Nav, Starshield, LBH exhaust, Dpic perf. gauge, Custom true HID projectors, GUT wing and splitter, Mesh side pods, Sector111 harness bar and 4-point harness, Lotus Sport Ohlins double-adjustable suspension, swaybar, '06 LED tailights, Toda flywheel, Lotusport interior.
Serebo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 12:31 PM   #14 (permalink)
Pres perfututum futūtor
 
RoadDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serebo1 View Post
Exactly. Thanks, RoadDad. Every great innovator or thinker-outside-the-box is ridiculed until what they're doing proves to work, right? We've hit a slight roadblock - the repositioning of the charcoal canister. Anyone ever considered moving that thing?
Move it? That's too BWR/S111 supercharger.

How about delete it? It will throw some OBD codes but who cares? And who cares about the environment?

What about making it smaller? That will keep the codes away. Replacement with miniature charcoal cannister?
__________________
"Really, you want to maintain a semblance of professionalism since you represent Lotus. Me... I don't need to. Bite me." -Randy

"...now that some of our wannabe competitors are beginnning (sic) to get to where we were three years ago..." -Charlie

RoadDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 12:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
Enemy of the State
 
tandemracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nashville
Posts: 854
I checked my calendar - it says September, not April.
__________________
Sold all my cars. Moving overseas for a few years.
tandemracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 12:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
Regurgitated User
 
fitfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego!
Posts: 4,387
it is true, i reveresed my transmisison and drive backwards now - 6 reverse gears and 1 forward. my 1/4 mile times dropped from the low 14's to the high 12's! now that the torq is going the right way... kinda of a pain driving backwards, but it was alot cheaper than the r&d to turn the engine around.

improved 1/4 mile with reversed transmission gears


if you don't believe me, here is the video to prove it !
__________________
"...our Germans are better than their Germans."

Last edited by fitfan; 09-19-2009 at 01:08 PM.
fitfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 01:11 PM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Serebo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,862
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadDad View Post
Move it? That's too BWR/S111 supercharger.

How about delete it? It will throw some OBD codes but who cares? And who cares about the environment?

What about making it smaller? That will keep the codes away. Replacement with miniature charcoal cannister?
Actually, a replacement is exactly what we were thinking. Everyone here knows how much of a green-freak I am, so, we're working on a solution as we speak. The current canister holds 32 oz's. of charcoal, and we want to keep that volume. We think that the issue isn't the placement as much as the shape. Allen is finishing (off) the solution shortly. Pics to follow.
__________________
Matte Black, Sport, Touring, ***** intake (TBA), RAC Mono wheels, Painted Shift knob, smoked turn signals, Alpine SPS 6.5" rear speakers, MB Quarts, JVC Nav, Starshield, LBH exhaust, Dpic perf. gauge, Custom true HID projectors, GUT wing and splitter, Mesh side pods, Sector111 harness bar and 4-point harness, Lotus Sport Ohlins double-adjustable suspension, swaybar, '06 LED tailights, Toda flywheel, Lotusport interior.
Serebo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 02:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
NOT ßANNED!
 
Demonized's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,171
Seems like slapping on a supercharger would be alot easier.
__________________
2005 Saffron Yellow Elise, Katana Supercharger, LSS Wheels, 2Bular exhaust & cat, Difflow 7 Element diffuser, Cup Airbox, Ohlins double adjustable coilovers, Dual Oil Coolers, RTD Brace, Moroso Oil Pan, MicroMirror, Manly Engine Mounts, Odyssey PC680 & RLS Bracket, Saikou Michi OCC, CF Scoops, CF Bootlid, CF Front Lip.
Demonized is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 02:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Serebo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,862
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadDad View Post
Move it? That's too BWR/S111 supercharger.

How about delete it? It will throw some OBD codes but who cares? And who cares about the environment?

What about making it smaller? That will keep the codes away. Replacement with miniature charcoal cannister?
OK, problem solved for now. I'm a bit concerned about side/rear impact, but there are plenty more where this came from. In any event, it should do until our more permanent, yet similarly shaped replacement is fabricated.
Attached Images
  
__________________
Matte Black, Sport, Touring, ***** intake (TBA), RAC Mono wheels, Painted Shift knob, smoked turn signals, Alpine SPS 6.5" rear speakers, MB Quarts, JVC Nav, Starshield, LBH exhaust, Dpic perf. gauge, Custom true HID projectors, GUT wing and splitter, Mesh side pods, Sector111 harness bar and 4-point harness, Lotus Sport Ohlins double-adjustable suspension, swaybar, '06 LED tailights, Toda flywheel, Lotusport interior.
Serebo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2009, 03:17 PM   #20 (permalink)
Soylent Green is People!
 
eurosport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 159
Hmmm, so this is why the Honda engined Elises are faster than the Toyotas...
__________________
Eric H.
'77 Esprit S1
'94 RX-7 R2
'00 RC51
?? '10 (or maybe '11, or maybe hybrid) Esprit
eurosport is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Lotus Discussions > Powertrain (Engine, Transmission, etc)


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2