Those you have used the Innovate LM-1 on the Lotus, I have a question - LotusTalk

MikeW · 06-15-2006, 12:24 PM

I have the RPM converter and wanted to do some A/F logging with RPM input. Has anyone used this and where did you pick up a signal for the converter. As I understand, we have coil on plug and no spark plug wires. I thought I'd ask the experts.

MikeW · 06-15-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyElise

Sorry can't help you. Get my rpm from the Emanage. Harness on the way to get the LC-1 into the EM.

Why would you need an LC-1 without a tunable computer?

So I'd know if I needed a tuneable computer.

Anyone else?

kverges · 06-15-2006, 04:23 PM

I grab RPM from the EM, too. I'd grab from the coil wires - get the service manual and check the wiring diagram for the correct wire (the one from the ECU). Whole lot of work for an academic exercise.

Beanie · 06-15-2006, 06:21 PM

Innovate Motorsports software (Log Works) leaves a lot to be desired. The sensors and gauges work well, but don't waste your time with their RPM converter and software. You will need to know the load and can't get it using their sensors. In addition to airflow (which you can get, I believe), you'd need intake air temperature and other factors that determine load. Innovate is leading you down this path based on the idea that if you know load (row) and RPM (column), you can make a map to put AFR values in. Their logs are time-based and have to be converted to a map... very "iffy". Skip all that RPM converter stuff and quessing because you'll probably draw some wrong conclusions and can't change anything even if you get it right. An eManage seems to be the least expensive way to tune an Elise, from what I've read. I would not try to make do with anything less "powerful" than that.

Edit: It is even more complicated than that. Even if you know what the cell is and put all the AFRs in their cells (average them), there are times when this should not be done. For example, when you let off the gas, the injectors cut off and you'll see very lean AFRs. You would not want to average these AFRs.

MikeW · 06-15-2006, 07:31 PM

I wanted to keep all this basic, with A/f ratios correlating to rpms at wide open throttle. Don't need anything else. Will the software do that much? I figure I'd just do a run in 2nd and then 3rd gear and see if I get enough or too much sampling. I had the car on the dyno and got a/f of 13.2 to 13.6 at 6k and above.

When I varified that with the LM-1, they seemed to be 12.7 at the leanest.

My friend was doing the watching. I wanted to see for myself but it's hard to find a place to do more that a first or second gear run in town. Have to watch for cars. And you can't just put the unit where it's visible and see the road!

Beanie · 06-15-2006, 07:56 PM

I see. Yes, you can do that, but that information alone won't tell you if it is good or bad. I have my car (different car, same engine) tuned to run quite rich at high RPM and load to allow the timing and VVT-i to be setup for max power. Making it rich is sometimes necessary. 13s is certainly OK. Some of my map is in the 12s. The 2ZZ will also produce good power running lean because of the heat, but that can be very dangerous.

Was the car being tuned on the dyno or were you just getting a baseline?

MikeW · 06-15-2006, 08:33 PM

I was just concerned as I had put a header on the car. When the dyno came up with the lean readings, I needed more info as I wasn't happy with 13s. It looks like the dyno readings were false. I track the car. Too much heat and time on the track in Phoenix. I like to be safe, 12.7 would be ideal for me. Also wanted to know how much extra fuel is there in the event of another mod. Usually cars are a little on the fat side of best power at open loop. That gives us the opportunity to find a way to get more air into the engine and still be ok without using the piggyback.

scottyb · 06-15-2006, 09:11 PM

If you want to stick with the Innovate system, I have the AuxBox 3. I also pull my rpm off the emanage, but you can pull the rpm off the injectors. I think they even have a sensor that attaches to the spark wire.

Beanie · 06-16-2006, 04:35 AM

I understand your concern, especially if you track the car... I would want to see what the AFR was if I were you (and *knock* and airfow & water & oil temp).

MikeW · 06-16-2006, 06:55 AM

[quote=Beanie]I understand your concern, especially if you track the car... I would want to see what the AFR was if I were you (and *knock* and airfow & water & oil temp).[/QU

That's right. I'm a gauge user. I used to log knock counts when tracking the Vette and add enough toluene to fix any problem. And of course we kill all the fluids here in Phoenix. I have a Spa Design oil press/temp gauge with a tell tale. More instruments in the future.

06-15-2006, 12:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
MikeW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,372	Those you have used the Innovate LM-1 on the Lotus, I have a question I have the RPM converter and wanted to do some A/F logging with RPM input. Has anyone used this and where did you pick up a signal for the converter. As I understand, we have coil on plug and no spark plug wires. I thought I'd ask the experts.

06-15-2006, 06:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
Beanie untitled Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 2,910	Innovate Motorsports software (Log Works) leaves a lot to be desired. The sensors and gauges work well, but don't waste your time with their RPM converter and software. You will need to know the load and can't get it using their sensors. In addition to airflow (which you can get, I believe), you'd need intake air temperature and other factors that determine load. Innovate is leading you down this path based on the idea that if you know load (row) and RPM (column), you can make a map to put AFR values in. Their logs are time-based and have to be converted to a map... very "iffy". Skip all that RPM converter stuff and quessing because you'll probably draw some wrong conclusions and can't change anything even if you get it right. An eManage seems to be the least expensive way to tune an Elise, from what I've read. I would not try to make do with anything less "powerful" than that. Edit: It is even more complicated than that. Even if you know what the cell is and put all the AFRs in their cells (average them), there are times when this should not be done. For example, when you let off the gas, the injectors cut off and you'll see very lean AFRs. You would not want to average these AFRs. __________________ It is all about "Other". Last edited by Beanie : 06-15-2006 at 06:43 PM.

06-15-2006, 07:56 PM	#6 (permalink)
Beanie untitled Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 2,910	I see. Yes, you can do that, but that information alone won't tell you if it is good or bad. I have my car (different car, same engine) tuned to run quite rich at high RPM and load to allow the timing and VVT-i to be setup for max power. Making it rich is sometimes necessary. 13s is certainly OK. Some of my map is in the 12s. The 2ZZ will also produce good power running lean because of the heat, but that can be very dangerous. Was the car being tuned on the dyno or were you just getting a baseline? __________________ It is all about "Other".

06-16-2006, 04:35 AM	#9 (permalink)
Beanie untitled Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 2,910	I understand your concern, especially if you track the car... I would want to see what the AFR was if I were you (and knock and airfow & water & oil temp). __________________ It is all about "Other".

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06-15-2006, 04:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
kverges Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dallas Posts: 925	I grab RPM from the EM, too. I'd grab from the coil wires - get the service manual and check the wiring diagram for the correct wire (the one from the ECU). Whole lot of work for an academic exercise.

06-15-2006, 07:31 PM	#5 (permalink)
MikeW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,372	I wanted to keep all this basic, with A/f ratios correlating to rpms at wide open throttle. Don't need anything else. Will the software do that much? I figure I'd just do a run in 2nd and then 3rd gear and see if I get enough or too much sampling. I had the car on the dyno and got a/f of 13.2 to 13.6 at 6k and above. When I varified that with the LM-1, they seemed to be 12.7 at the leanest. My friend was doing the watching. I wanted to see for myself but it's hard to find a place to do more that a first or second gear run in town. Have to watch for cars. And you can't just put the unit where it's visible and see the road!

06-15-2006, 08:33 PM	#7 (permalink)
MikeW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,372	I was just concerned as I had put a header on the car. When the dyno came up with the lean readings, I needed more info as I wasn't happy with 13s. It looks like the dyno readings were false. I track the car. Too much heat and time on the track in Phoenix. I like to be safe, 12.7 would be ideal for me. Also wanted to know how much extra fuel is there in the event of another mod. Usually cars are a little on the fat side of best power at open loop. That gives us the opportunity to find a way to get more air into the engine and still be ok without using the piggyback.

06-15-2006, 09:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
scottyb Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,681	If you want to stick with the Innovate system, I have the AuxBox 3. I also pull my rpm off the emanage, but you can pull the rpm off the injectors. I think they even have a sensor that attaches to the spark wire.

06-16-2006, 06:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
MikeW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,372	[quote=Beanie]I understand your concern, especially if you track the car... I would want to see what the AFR was if I were you (and knock and airfow & water & oil temp).[/QU That's right. I'm a gauge user. I used to log knock counts when tracking the Vette and add enough toluene to fix any problem. And of course we kill all the fluids here in Phoenix. I have a Spa Design oil press/temp gauge with a tell tale. More instruments in the future.

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