Vishnu.. ewwwww ;) (was: Forcedfed Dyno Plot)

[shiv@vishnu]

Originally Posted by 1FASTMX5

WELCOME SHIV!

Do tell if you have something in the works.

Hi Jen--- Started new thread since I didn't want to infringe on Forcefed's thread.

To answer your question, we dont have any concrete plans for a turbo or sc kit. About the only thing we could entertain now is developing an XEDE engine management application. But, for that, we'll need a car for a day or two for dyno testing and ECU evaluation. I'd certainly be curious as to how much power one could extract from these motors, boosted or not

shiv

[Lotus F1]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi Jen--- Started new thread since I didn't want to infringe on Forcefed's thread.

To answer your question, we dont have any concrete plans for a turbo or sc kit. About the only thing we could entertain now is developing an XEDE engine management application. But, for that, we'll need a car for a day or two for dyno testing and ECU evaluation. I'd certainly be curious as to how much power one could extract from these motors, boosted or not

shiv

Thanks for the response. This however isn't Jen (note the hairy legs in avatar lol) Jen is onefastmiata or now onefastlotus on here. Nonetheless it's great to see you having an interest in this little car. You had done wonders for my Miata and look forward to seeing what you do with this great lil car. I guess it's finally time for me to change my username too.

[jac]

Welcome to the forum Shiv.

I have been meaning to call you guys about my wrx sti.

I'll get in touch this spring. Getting out of my driveway with @16 inches of snow this morning was bad enough with 300hp.

Lots of fun though.

[OneFastLotus]

Hi Shiv,

Jenn here.

Ive got two elises sitting my my garage right now, and you're welcome to either one. I can have them to you when/where you like.

For those who are wondering about Vishnu, let's just say I trust Shiv implicitly.

I've been emailing you for a hundred years! I think I played email tag with your assistant a few months ago. I think you may have been "back home" at the time. Good to have you here!

[shiv@vishnu]

Originally Posted by MyElise

Great! I'd like to be able to bring the highspeed cam in at about 4000 rpm, control timing and mixture, use larger injectors and possibly a 5th one and make my torque curve look just like the one below. Can do?

No problem with all of the above. Although I'd rather you go with 4 injectors of sufficient capacity instead of an aux. injector. Without having done any manifold flow testing, it's impossible to predict how poorly (anywhere from slightly poorly to staggeringly poorly) runner-to-run fuel distribution will be. The fifth injector "solution" is good when it comes to meeting CARB/EPA regulations but they are poor for actual fueling needs.

To those crazy Kentuckians, glad to see your all doing well and no less power obsessed than you were years back
Jenn- still undecided about offering a turbo kit for the Elise. Having already turbo'd the Toyota engine years back in the SCC mag project Matrix and watched its progress over the months, miles and media tests, I might only consider a low boost turbo kit. Lower than most would expect or maybe even want. But i've been known to be on the conservative side so other peoples' mileage may vary Great choice on cars, by the way, I had the opportunity to drive one this past weekend at Thunderhill and

Regards,
shiv

[DesignIt]

Shiv,
Good to see you on EliseTalk after all these years! A couple of us from the Houston Miata group (Ara and I) are waiting on Elises. Clint and I have gotten into MINIs, and as you know, the Doctor has defected to the dark side by buying an M3. And yes, I still have my vintage Miata in much the same condition it was during the "Cinco de Mayo Dyno Days".

John

[geezer]

Jeebus. It's like one big old-time Miata.net gathering here. Shiv certainly does great Miata work and now Evo work from what I read. And Ara & Clint and the gang are working my FM IV miata into top notch shape as well.

Anyone else around?

[Lotus F1]

Originally Posted by geezer

Jeebus. It's like one big old-time Miata.net gathering here. Shiv certainly does great Miata work and now Evo work from what I read. And Ara & Clint and the gang are working my FM IV miata into top notch shape as well.

Anyone else around?

LOL! Who did you expect to see...former Mustang/Muscle Car owners

[geezer]

Originally Posted by 1FASTMX5

LOL! Who did you expect to see...former Mustang/Muscle Car owners

Fair enough

[Zifrid]

so Shiv, what do you have in mind for the Elise? N/A engine add ons, or turbo? If so, (i know im getting a bit ahead here) how much would you be pricing any type of parts including a turbo, for the elise?

[raggedy1]

Shiv,
I've followed your cars through magazine articles and have always been impressed by the price/performance ratio you offer.
Curious as to why you aren't completely satisfied with the turbo kit you had installed on the Matrix. Why would you now only consider a low pressure kit for the Elise? Is it drivability or reliability (or both) that surfaced as concerns?

[OneFastLotus]

Originally Posted by geezer

Jeebus. It's like one big old-time Miata.net gathering here. Shiv certainly does great Miata work and now Evo work from what I read. And Ara & Clint and the gang are working my FM IV miata into top notch shape as well.

Anyone else around?

Old Schooler artist formerly known as Miata Mamma here. Shiv tuned/helped me build a 300+hp miata...and its still here,in one piece, 3 years later.

[JonOrangeElise]

Originally Posted by raggedy1

Shiv,
I've followed your cars through magazine articles and have always been impressed by the price/performance ratio you offer.
Curious as to why you aren't completely satisfied with the turbo kit you had installed on the Matrix. Why would you now only consider a low pressure kit for the Elise? Is it drivability or reliability (or both) that surfaced as concerns?

from shiv's partner in crime, dave coleman, formerly of scc:

"Now, putting any kind of forced induction on an engine with 11.5:1
compression is a terrible idea. I tried it once, with Shiv's help, and
the engine only lasted a few weeks. It was great during those weeks,
and frankly we don't know who blew it up or how, but the real lesson to
be learned is that the compression needs to be dropped. The other
lesson is that a peaky, high-revving engine with a turbo is still a
peaky, high-revving engine. There was plenty of torque with the turbo,
but the real meat of the power was still way up on the noisy part of
the tach."

truth be told, i don't know if dave was referring to the matrix project. his basic point remains, though...

[MattG]

...frankly we don't know who blew it up or how, but the real lesson to be learned is that the compression needs to be dropped.

How can they conclude that the compression needs to be dropped when they admit they don't know how or why it 'blew up'?! This is not engineering, it's a knee jerk reaction (unless there's more to the story than is being quoted here).

[JonOrangeElise]

Originally Posted by MattG

How can they conclude that the compression needs to be dropped when they admit they don't know how or why it 'blew up'?! This is not engineering, it's a knee jerk reaction (unless there's more to the story than is being quoted here).

It's the basic nature of high-compression and forced induction... which explains why Shiv wrote that he would only consider a low-boost kit. (maybe Shiv can jump in and explain coleman's words, and describe the SCC experience...).

FWIW, coleman has told me it's not a matter of "if" but "when" in respect to FI cooking this 2ZZ-GE engine. here is the rest of coleman's email:

"I've had this discussion in detail with another friend who is a few
years farther down the waiting list than you (in other words, he can't
afford to order it just yet) and we figured the best solution for both
performance and resale value is to pull the stock engine out, shrink
wrap it and put it in the corner. Then you build a new motor starting
with take a base Toyota Corolla engine, which is the same engine family
and will bolt in. The Corolla head is designed for a broad, torquey
powerband, and the engine overall is nice and cheap. You don't need
that much power, so you don't have to go crazy with an engine build.
Just forged pistons and rods and a nice freshening up of the bores.
Then you can turbocharge the Corolla engine to maybe 10 psi, make 250
hp and probably twice the torque of the stock engine, and still be able
to revert to stock when it comes time to sell.

The only additional cost over properly turbocharging the stock engine
is the cost of one Corolla engine. The Corolla, MR2, Matrix, Celica and
Ponitiac Vibe all use that engine. Cost for a junkyard motor should be
marginal."

Regardless, this isn't knee-jerk thinking... let's just say i won't be doing a turbo kit until after a sizeable group of people guinea-pig the forcefed kit and/or similar hardware/software.

here is coleman's published write-up on project matrix:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr...cc_projmatrix/

and, most importantly:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr...scc_promatrix/

[shiv@vishnu]

Wow... it's like a reunion here. Ara, John, Coleman, Jenn and George

The whole Matrix experiment was a fun one. We all knew we were in for a challenge but there was no cost to us individually so we gave it a shot. With several hundred thousand readers watching the progress of the car and being subject to fun lovingly abusive journalists, I was quite conservative with the tuning, staying pretty far away from MBT and running a fuel curve that would never be mistaken for a leanburn EPA calibration

Whether or not we know actually what happened, I think the point Dave makes is that there isn't much of a margin of safety with boosting a high CR motor. At least not enough for most users in most applications. Bad gas, sustained torque loads, sustained charge temps, etc,. will all take its toll. If not now, then definately later. And both Dave and I are considered optimists

When NA engines are designed to rev high and make a high specific output (unaided by turbos/scs), they are designed with very high static compression and very lightweight componentry. Both of which make them very grumpy when trying to support substantially higher-than-stock power loads. Even without the presence of detonation, ultra-high peak cylinder pressures (high CR x Boost = massively high dynamic compression loads) will overwork the piston ring seal (possibly causing excessive blow by), bend lightweight rods and do other nasty stuff that we all assume will never happen to us. Everything will look and feel good until you start noticing a loss of power, a nasty clanking noise and/or a lot of oil in your intercooler.

Is trying to make more power (through boost) a hopeless proposition in the Elise? Certainly not. But it's going to require a bit more thought and assumed risk than most shops and customers are willing to assume.

Just my 2c,
shiv

[pianomaniac]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Wow... it's like a reunion here. Ara, John, Coleman, Jenn and George

The whole Matrix experiment was a fun one. We all knew we were in for a challenge but there was no cost to us individually so we gave it a shot. With several hundred thousand readers watching the progress of the car and being subject to fun lovingly abusive journalists, I was quite conservative with the tuning, staying pretty far away from MBT and running a fuel curve that would never be mistaken for a leanburn EPA calibration

Whether or not we know actually what happened, I think the point Dave makes is that there isn't much of a margin of safety with boosting a high CR motor. At least not enough for most users in most applications. Bad gas, sustained torque loads, sustained charge temps, etc,. will all take its toll. If not now, then definately later. And both Dave and I are considered optimists

When NA engines are designed to rev high and make a high specific output (unaided by turbos/scs), they are designed with very high static compression and very lightweight componentry. Both of which make them very grumpy when trying to support substantially higher-than-stock power loads. Even without the presence of detonation, ultra-high peak cylinder pressures (high CR x Boost = massively high dynamic compression loads) will overwork the piston ring seal (possibly causing excessive blow by), bend lightweight rods and do other nasty stuff that we all assume will never happen to us. Everything will look and feel good until you start noticing a loss of power, a nasty clanking noise and/or a lot of oil in your intercooler.

Is trying to make more power (through boost) a hopeless proposition in the Elise? Certainly not. But it's going to require a bit more thought and assumed risk than most shops and customers are willing to assume.

Just my 2c,
shiv

So....I would assume that S/C would result in the same "massively high dynamic compression loads"?

[Lotus F1]

Originally Posted by pianomaniac

So....I would assume that S/C would result in the same "massively high dynamic compression loads"?

It still does the same thing and that is putting more air into the cylinders...so yes.

[raggedy1]

I've heard enough from Shiv to convince me it's not the best idea to jump on the FF kit right now.
No offense to FF, but Shiv's background is one I would put stock in.

[evomind]

yep, i said from day one that the way to do it right is take the stock motor out and get another one and rebuild it with forged internals and lowered compression.....this gives u so much more reliability and flexibility......its not cheap, but its the right way to do it.