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Old 01-11-2013, 07:26 AM   #41 (permalink)
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'Dissent is Patriotic'

Hilary Clinton. Right before she had was admitted with an ingrown toenail to get out of testifying about Whitewater.

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Old 01-14-2013, 03:39 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Hmmm....no further comments on FairTax? Lemme guess.............no one bothered to look into it. LOL.
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:16 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Hmmm....no further comments on FairTax? Lemme guess.............no one bothered to look into it. LOL.
I for one will never try and cheat the government. When I was a child, I learned that policy will be written without me and there is nothing I can do about it -- Just keep on living and doing what people have said I need to do.

Luckily Sean, you do have options. Go ahead and move to Mexico and live on the beach. you shouldn't be taxed there and you will be super happy.

:-)
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:35 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I for one will never try and cheat the government. When I was a child, I learned that policy will be written without me and there is nothing I can do about it -- Just keep on living and doing what people have said I need to do.

Luckily Sean, you do have options. Go ahead and move to Mexico and live on the beach. you shouldn't be taxed there and you will be super happy.

:-)
Depends on your definition of "cheating". Because the dems will call it cheating if they don't think you are paying your share even if you are just using the rules of the system which allows you certain deductions and benefits which they all are also free to use.

However, if their own people use those same rules to benefit, they don't get the same type of indignant outrage about it, such as all the Hollywood and Political elite using tax shelters, foreign deposit accounts, fictitious corporate or land holdings, and generation skipping trusts.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:00 PM   #45 (permalink)
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'Dissent is Patriotic'

Hilary Clinton. Right before she had was admitted with an ingrown toenail to get out of testifying about Whitewater.

Actually the usual quote is "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism", and it's from a 1961 publication, The Use of Force in International Affairs:

"If what your country is doing seems to you practically and morally wrong, is dissent the highest form of patriotism?"
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:32 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I for one will never try and cheat the government. When I was a child, I learned that policy will be written without me and there is nothing I can do about it -- Just keep on living and doing what people have said I need to do.

Luckily Sean, you do have options. Go ahead and move to Mexico and live on the beach. you shouldn't be taxed there and you will be super happy.

:-)

How is a new tax code....one that makes sense, adjusts our failed "consumer" economy to a sustainable one, brings back American jobs and American manufacturing......"cheating" the government, exactly?
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:34 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Depends on your definition of "cheating". Because the dems will call it cheating if they don't think you are paying your share even if you are just using the rules of the system which allows you certain deductions and benefits which they all are also free to use.

However, if their own people use those same rules to benefit, they don't get the same type of indignant outrage about it, such as all the Hollywood and Political elite using tax shelters, foreign deposit accounts, fictitious corporate or land holdings, and generation skipping trusts.

And that's the beauty of FairTax....it taxes everyone equally, simplifies the tax code, reduces the need for the bureaucracy of the IRS, and catches the people that have been "cheating" and avoiding paying taxes by hiding wealth and offshoring accounts. There's no need to do that anymore...b/c you aren't taxed unless you buy new items.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:33 PM   #48 (permalink)
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How is a new tax code....one that makes sense, adjusts our failed "consumer" economy to a sustainable one, brings back American jobs and American manufacturing......"cheating" the government, exactly?
Because it will make Democrat tax cheats accountable and it will make their non-taxpaying voting base pay some taxes which will make them mad... that's it in a nutshell.

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And that's the beauty of FairTax....it taxes everyone equally, simplifies the tax code, reduces the need for the bureaucracy of the IRS, and catches the people that have been "cheating" and avoiding paying taxes by hiding wealth and offshoring accounts. There's no need to do that anymore...b/c you aren't taxed unless you buy new items.
Universal consumption tax is said to disproportionately hit the lower class because it means they get hit with more taxes as a proportion of their income. The proportion of income which goes to non-discretionary consumables is more than those with higher incomes.

In other words, things everyone has to buy such as groceries and such hit the lower class more as a percentage of the overall income. Not to say I agree or disagree with this line of thinking, but the numbers do bear it out somewhat.

I'm more of a flat tax guy than a fair tax guy... but that's just me.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:29 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Because it will make Democrat tax cheats accountable and it will make their non-taxpaying voting base pay some taxes which will make them mad... that's it in a nutshell.



Universal consumption tax is said to disproportionately hit the lower class because it means they get hit with more taxes as a proportion of their income. The proportion of income which goes to non-discretionary consumables is more than those with higher incomes.

In other words, things everyone has to buy such as groceries and such hit the lower class more as a percentage of the overall income. Not to say I agree or disagree with this line of thinking, but the numbers do bear it out somewhat.

I'm more of a flat tax guy than a fair tax guy... but that's just me.


Not true. FairTax addresses this: http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/PrebateExplained2012.pdf

I would agree with you about consumption taxes hitting the lower income person harder for necessity items if it weren't for the way the 'prebate' system is laid out.

Flat tax is DEFINITELY better than what we have now....but it is not fair as not only is there disparity between what one person of one income level pays in taxes regardless of discretionary spending, but it is also not voluntary. That is where FairTax has a flat tax beat.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:59 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Not true. FairTax addresses this: http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/PrebateExplained2012.pdf

I would agree with you about consumption taxes hitting the lower income person harder for necessity items if it weren't for the way the 'prebate' system is laid out.

Flat tax is DEFINITELY better than what we have now....but it is not fair as not only is there disparity between what one person of one income level pays in taxes regardless of discretionary spending, but it is also not voluntary. That is where FairTax has a flat tax beat.
Yes, the voluntary system of taxation has its merit in that you choose the level of consumption in line with your supposedly proportional use of the public resources.

You buy a car, you buy gas, you pay taxes on those, you use the road which is paid for by those taxes. You don't use the road, you don't pay taxes on the car and gas you don't buy. That is one way it works. Then there's the public transit issue about how those taxes are funded... the buses use roads and they tear up the roads a lot more than the average passenger car. There's no way you can charge an accurate and proportionate price on bus tickets and still expect people to ride the bus, so you have to subsidize it with other people's taxes, thereby turning the funding of roads involuntary to some extent.

Same with the police and military. Those are functions available to all, and for those in high crime areas, or victims of crime, they use police resources more than those of us who may not ever have to call the cops. You can be one of those crazies that call the cops every single day but do not shop much for consumables or someone who never calls the cops but buys a lot of stuff. So yes, you can voluntarily choose to pay taxes, but you are not necessarily benefiting equally from the taxes you paid.

Who knows... there is no right or perfect answer to taxation but it is a necessary part of funding governmental functions.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:59 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Yes, the voluntary system of taxation has its merit in that you choose the level of consumption in line with your supposedly proportional use of the public resources.

You buy a car, you buy gas, you pay taxes on those, you use the road which is paid for by those taxes. You don't use the road, you don't pay taxes on the car and gas you don't buy. That is one way it works. Then there's the public transit issue about how those taxes are funded... the buses use roads and they tear up the roads a lot more than the average passenger car. There's no way you can charge an accurate and proportionate price on bus tickets and still expect people to ride the bus, so you have to subsidize it with other people's taxes, thereby turning the funding of roads involuntary to some extent.

Same with the police and military. Those are functions available to all, and for those in high crime areas, or victims of crime, they use police resources more than those of us who may not ever have to call the cops. You can be one of those crazies that call the cops every single day but do not shop much for consumables or someone who never calls the cops but buys a lot of stuff. So yes, you can voluntarily choose to pay taxes, but you are not necessarily benefiting equally from the taxes you paid.

Who knows... there is no right or perfect answer to taxation but it is a necessary part of funding governmental functions.
Do you ride the bus for free? No....you pay the road/infrastructure tax when you buy your bus pass or ticket.....Just as you pay a gasoline tax for roads and all sorts of other programs when you currently buy fuel. And....a very large percentage of what you pay per gallon of gas is taxes to city, state and federal authorities. Some pumps will actually list the number of cents or percentage going to these entities.

What I don't understand is the hesitation and unwillingness to amend a clearly much more unfair tax system (the one currently in place).

Since when has America decided that, "Well, if we don't have a perfect solution....we'll go with the status quo or the one we know to be the least effective, least fair, most complex and expensive, etc?"

As for talking about the benefits you derive from paying taxes.....what are you getting now? Endless war in the Middle East? I certainly don't condone or want that. I don't call police and I prefer it that way. They are a reactionary force by nature anyway. Most people's interaction with them is generally not something that solves a problem. They are largely responsible for report taking and investigation, but only on higher profile crime. Call them b/c your car was broken into....and they're not going to spend much time trying to find the perp.

You are confusing the issue.....we're not trying to level out what you pay with what you get. We're trying to make an equitable and fair formula for the times when you pay. How those taxes are apportioned are determined by your elected representatives.....a process the citizenry has decided, apathetically, that they want no part of.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:14 AM   #52 (permalink)
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gripe all your want and pretend you know what is best for the country, but unless the government states otherwise, pay your taxes and don't fight it.

i don't trust any joe blow from a forum post of the welfare of our nation.
ie: you haven't cited any sources.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:27 AM   #53 (permalink)
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gripe all your want and pretend you know what is best for the country, but unless the government states otherwise, pay your taxes and don't fight it.

i don't trust any joe blow from a forum post of the welfare of our nation.
ie: you haven't cited any sources.
And what have YOU brought to the discussion? Let's see, you've proven you speak solely from a position of ignorance about the topic at hand....

Here's an idea:

"Why not try being informed, rather than simply opinionated?"

I'm not "griping".....I'm explaining why the FairTax addresses all of the concerns so far raised by the people who actually took a moment to consider it.

I don't pretend to know what's best, or have a better answer than the FairTax or Flat Tax....EITHER would be better than our current tax policy. I didn't write either proposal (or the multiple derivatives there of). Surely you can comprehend that, but from your responses, it would seem you think this all "my" plan.

CMP, you keep making comments that would seem to indicate that you believe I'm not paying my taxes.....yet you don't know me, nor do you know a thing about my financial situation. I pay my federal income taxes at a single, zero deduction rate, if you must know. I'm not evading any taxes whatsoever. What I'm simply saying is that there are far better ways to have a viable tax system.

The question then becomes....why are you so resistant to a restructuring of the current system? Why are you such an adamant supporter?

You've made statements to the effect that YOU can't change the current tax code.......and implied that we might as well all just accept it. Why? Is our government not a representative one? You sir, are a defeatist....IF that is your viewpoint; an apathetic one at that.

"Freedom is hammered out on the anvil of discussion, dissent, and debate."
- Hubert H. Humphrey

Our system of government is meant to be changed by an actively participating citizenry. The fact that you don't wish to participate isn't my concern. "Lead, follow or get out of the way" applies here....you obviously need to be in the latter category.

Lastly, I have cited FairTax.org directly. 80+ economists have endorsed the FairTax plan including a Nobel Laureate. I've given you all the information necessary for you to research the proposal....you've simply been too lazy to look it up yourself and obviously prefer to be spoon fed.

If you really want to engage in debate, I suggest you get off your bum and look up the facts and then we can discuss them. Until then, you have no specific questions for me to refute....so I'll just wait for you to educate yourself; something I doubt you'll be willing to do.....It's so much more fun to mock and make irrelevant comments about my personal tax situation of which you know nothing about.

Have a nice day!

Sean
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:38 PM   #54 (permalink)
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You looked like you wrote a bunch. too bad i'm not going to read it.

poly sci major and i just don't really care what anyone has to get off their chest about their view of politics.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:46 PM   #55 (permalink)
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You looked like you wrote a bunch. too bad i'm not going to read it.

poly sci major and i just don't really care what anyone has to get off their chest about their view of politics.
Typical. Can't discuss it, so you dismiss it....but then, I called it.

Whatever.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:07 PM   #56 (permalink)
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you still typing on here?
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:42 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Yep. Sure am.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:19 PM   #58 (permalink)
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You looked like you wrote a bunch. too bad i'm not going to read it.

poly sci major and i just don't really care what anyone has to get off their chest about their view of politics.
Very mature!
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:03 PM   #59 (permalink)
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and the other 50% think that 100% of it is stupid to argue about.
funny as hell^
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:05 PM   #60 (permalink)
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'Dissent is Patriotic'

Hilary Clinton. Right before she had was admitted with an ingrown toenail to get out of testifying about Whitewater.

Clearly ingrown toenails are not patriotic. They're gross.
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