SSP? SSM? Rev400? Yes. - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community

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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-14-2017, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
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SSP? SSM? Rev400? Yes.

Last month, I put a Blackwatch/BOE Rev400 on my 2006 Elise. I'd intended on using the car in SCCA Stock category autocross (now "Street") when I bought it ~5 years ago.

The car and I did not get along in Street/Stock. It had all the right bits, it was fast, as demonstrated by JakeD and a couple of other people, but I never really clicked with it. I don't know why.

So, I started thinking about getting out of stock and into SP or SSM. The bulk of my time autocrossing has been in SP - "Street Prepared," which, in a nutshell, allows suspension/wheel/tire/intake/exhaust changes, but not much more.

That said, "Street Prepared" cars lose a lot of "Street" by the time they're competitive; I often refer to the category as "Street Impaired." The Elise can certainly do well in SSP - Ryno has proven that - but SP is a weird category in that you can do a lot of interesting things, but you have to do it the most difficult way possible.

Example - way back, 99ish or so, welded differentials were not allowed.

You COULD legally shim a clutch-type LSD so tight that it was effectively locked, but you could not just weld the damned thing. Stupid; when you shim a clutchpack that tight, it wears out fast. Replacing clutch bits every few events sucks. I like SP as a category, it is fun, in a nerdy way (to really do it right), and that was appealing.

Thing is, taking a stock 06 Elise and making it into a competitive SSP car costs a fair bit. Realistically, the engine piece would cost about as much as a Rev400, by the time it was all said and done - and I'd wind up with less power.

SO....SSM? Huh. I have to ballast the car up. That's offensive, but who am I to talk - I'm not exactly light. Ballasting the car up is nice, I don't have to worry about how light everything is. There's no motivation to remove the AC. I can put a stereo in the car. Huh. Interesting.

Both classes allow cutting the fenders. I'm not quite ready to go there yet, but in the interim, a Rev400 + decent wheel/tire/suspension = a regionally competitive car that's still usable on the street, and if one were to chop fenders, it gets really pretty competitive.

Sounds good. So, off to blackwatchracing.com, ordered a Rev400, surge tank, DMC header, clutch, etc.

I dragged the car to a friend's shop, spent three weekends installing it.

Of note:

- Fred and Phil's customer service is great. Emails and phone calls answered immediately, any questions I had were answered thoroughly - although I had few, as the instructions are THAT GOOD.

- The kit, instructions and attention to detail are astounding. BOE/Blackwatch did an amazing job. Everything is packaged well, sensibly, the step-by-step nature of the instructions makes it really pretty straightforward. It is a big job, but not really all that _hard_. Just lots of individual steps.

- If you choose to do this, budget extra time. There are all SORTS of things in there that you might find interesting to address while the ancillaries are off the motor. There's a lot more room in the engine compartment with no intake and whatnot in the way. I spent a solid 8-10 hours doing Other Stuff "while I'm in there."

- Buy a clamhinge. I have the Radium "quick" disconnect kit, and it is certainly pretty good, but really, the hinge is the answer.

- One place where Fred and Phil are full of crap is simple - they claim it is possible to do without removing the clam. Bovine feces;). Kidding aside, I'm sure it is possible to install it with the clam in place, but yow, I can't imagine. Take the clam off. Put a hinge on. it'll be better. Even with the time it takes to remove the clam from stock (interior out), I suspect you'd save time overall. I *know* you'd not regret it. I just can't imagine leaving the clam on.

- The instructions are not only good, they're foretelling - just about every not-expected thing that came up was directly addressed in the instructions. The instructions are really good.

- once finished, you get to drive it.

The change in the car's personality is incredible. I really liked the Elise with the stock 2zz, in its own way. It was not overly powerful, necessarily, but it was fun - and not _slow_ if I kept it on the cam. The whole package works.

It works a WHOLE LOT BETTER with a bunch more power. I have no idea how much power my car makes - Fred knows what I'm after, Phil was very communicative, I had confidence that they'd put together the right combination of ones-and-zeros with elevation (Denver), intended use (autocrossing) and fuel - 91 is "super" here at 5200+ feet. If the car ever goes to sea level, it'll do it on a trailer & I'll put appropriate fuel in to accommodate. I never even bothered to ask "how much power."

It is adequate, to undersell it a WHOLE lot. I can't imagine what it'll be like at sea level. When I brought it home, it was raining. I took it for a ride before stuffing it back into the garage. Wheelspin was an issue. HAH! I'll take that.

First autocross outing was amusing; I'd not changed my alignment (rear toe, specifically). It was, well, sensitive to throttle application. Again, underselling it. The car just could not put power down. Again, I'll take that.

The car is fast. I've not dynoed it, I've not taken it to the dragstrip. I've driven a LOT of interesting cars over the years at various autocross schools. It is easily as fast, or in the same ballpark as those cars -
supercharged Corvettes, hotrod BMWs, Nissan GTRs, Porsche turbo things, etc - I've been fortunate, I've driven lots of interesting stuff.

The Elise + Rev400 is an enormously well sorted combination. Not only is it fast - it is, it is a legitimately fast car now - it works. Driveability is not compromised. It starts like a normal car. It idles well. It does nothing weird.

I drove it to work today, and in the middle of the day, I ran an errand. I was halfway to the relative middle of nowhere when I realized how much post-installation work I'd NOT done.

I started it/checked it out/drove it/etc per the instructions. I brought it back in, checked to be sure everything was tight, no leaks, wires and hoses routed correctly, etc.

I've done _nothing_ since, save checking oil and things. I don't hesitate to drive it anywhere. It just _works_. I've been messing with cars for a while, I've made some pretty big changes to various vehicles over the years, and NORMALLY, when I've invaded a car's personal space as much as I did the Elise, there's a teething period of a few weeks where I dare not stray too far, and certainly not without tools.

This thing came out of the box and onto the car, and it could very well be passed off as factory - lots of "modified" cars are big, clunky piles. Fast, yes, refined, no.

So - if you've read this far - two thumbs up. Five stars. Whatever metric you'd like, the combination is great. Zero regrets or complaints.



Iain

Last edited by mannix; 06-14-2017 at 07:51 PM.
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 04:00 AM
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@mannix My experience twins your own to the T. Avid AutoXer, was doing great with the elise in somewhat stock form. Added Penske DAs and found out what real balance felt like. Added Rev400 and took racing to a whole new level. Its a completely different car that doesn't accelerate, it teleports forward. First race after install I missed so many gates because I blew past them without even knowing it.

I need to ballast up as well now. Its a slippery slope. Ballast then an LSD, after that maybe some aero. Then the thought of wider tires comes into play which means either a cut clam or one of the wide body ones.

Good luck on your adventure. Its a fun ride.

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 05:02 AM
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Radness. I had the same experience.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 05:06 AM
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It's fun, isn't it?! Does the forced induction somewhat compensate for the altitude? I echo so much of your sentiments. BOE and BWR are awesome at what they do. The rev400 is the real deal. I did pop a stock block but it had a many miles on it and a smaller pulley, too. Now I'm on a built 9:1 motor. I'm not ready to cut my fenders, either, but when I do I think I will just do the basic bolt on flares because I'm lazy. I bought some ballast material but just... it feels so wrong... I've been thinking about a removable ballast setup, but it's lower on the priority list, behind suspension and aero bits for now. You can run XP and not have to ballast. Since I am not really competitive, anyway, I don't mind running XP. I just enjoy a chance to unleash the car.

Upgrades are a slippery slope. What are you doing for transaxle? One day I hope to upgrade to one of Fred's beefed up C64 units. Do you have LSD? If you're going SSM, then the E153 is strong enough and adds weight. Plus the weight it adds sits pretty low. The E153 install is more difficult than Fred's. For now I have swapped for a TRD LSD and a 3.9 final drive gearbox. It's great for autox and street; I can do 80+ in 2nd, or do 80 and in 6th and keep it under 3k rpm. I like that I'm not banging the rev limiter as much as the old setup. Plus the 3.9 is great on the highway. The tall gears and the mid range from the super charger make it very streetable. It's probably just a matter of time before I destroy that trans, though. I already messed up the original c64 and I've added power since then. You mention it being among the fastest cars you've experienced, again, I agree. Regarding the dyno, etc, I have dyno'd and weighed my car and it's under 5 lb / hp. At the drag strip I have been absolutely smoked, though! The car is fast and I'm not a bad driver but some of those drag cars are ridiculously quick. On the streets it is a rare car that is faster.

Sound! For 1.8 L it sounds mean! At a national scca event my car was measured over the 100 db limit. People tell me it is loud.

My next thing is probably going to be tires. I have a set of streets and rcomps, and both are nearing end of life. I'm not going to do anything crazy, this time. I don't want to pay to play the rcomp game right now; I'd rather put my budget towards parts/upgrades that last longer. Plus like I said I don't really care if I "win"; showing up in a 400 hp Lotus you kind of win before you start. So I'm thinking of running one of these sweet 200 tw tires that are out on the market. Plus, no more changing wheels for events! I don't tow my car, I drive it, so long distance events have required me to rely on friendly co competitors that would haul my wheels for me.


Last edited by Parko; 06-15-2017 at 05:30 AM.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 07:55 AM
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Thanks Mannix et al for the kind words. When Phil and I first spoke years ago when the Rev stuff was just an idea and we were doing the BWR MP62 kit, one place of common ground was the crappy experience we had with "tuner" products as customers. For me it was e36 BMWs for Phil it was Grand Nationals and C5 vettes, I believe. The bar is low to claim to be a "tuner" and we were sick of that. Phil has really gone nuts is continuing to polish the Rev300/400 even as the RevX is working its way to full production for the truly insane.

Our daily driver shop car continues to be a 2005 Elise with Rev400, our 15x8" and 17x9" wheels with 200TW BFG Rival S tires. Suspension varies all over the map from Cruiser pack NA penskes to current DA Penskes with race springs. Transmission is currently a test box of our gear set with 4.8:1 Final drive. I am looking forward to testing our super beefy stock final drive when we get the prototypes in.

With Rev400, street tires, shocks, and wheels, it is a daily driving super car. No drama. It starts, it rips and corners like a Lightcycle from Tron(really dating myself here). It putters around town with great driveability. Stereo is fantastic courtesy of JL Audio and JCFab. Basically a twin of what Mannix built. Highly unlikely that car ever gets sold.

Mannix, thanks for being a model customer and friend. Enjoy!
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 08:19 AM
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 09:11 AM
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I saw Fred in Lincoln, and he told me you were going this direction. Awesome!!!! Really glad to hear the great stories...this is on my list, just not right now. Can't wait though!!!! Thanks for relaying your experiences.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 10:02 AM
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Stop selling this so well! Some of us are trying to be content over here in stock class
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 10:51 AM
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Stop selling this so well! Some of us are trying to be content over here in stock class
The truth of it is that Lotus did a brilliant job with the aluminum chassis and suspension. The bad news is that the rest of the car is lacking. The stock car with base wheels turns like a UPS truck. The shocks are crap, crashing over everything while inducing snap oversteer when driven hard. Power was adequate, not great, back in the day, just isn't adequate now.

The good news is that since the chassis is so brilliant, it responds so well to all the upgrades. The Penske shocks put it on another planet handling-wise. When I first bolted on the TVS400 Prototype, I took it on trashed, heat cycled A048s on LSS wheels to Friday night drags and ran an 11.9 sec 1/4 mile at 119.7mph ON THE FIRST RUN!!!!

Life's too short to settle or as the ancient greek philosophers used to say about NA vs forced induction on small displacement engines: "Injection is nice, but I would rather be blown"

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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2017, 04:22 AM
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Nice review!

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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2017, 05:08 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Fred! Just posting credit where it is due - you guys did a great job.

@Washburn - you should do it. It totally changes the car. If I'm in Lincoln, take a run or two on the p-course, go for a drive on the street. Just don't get on it in 3rd until you're on 70; that ticket won't put you in jail.

Parko - I'm fairly certain a sc car loses the same percentage of power as n/a wrt elevation, but we're used to it. I had a semi-hotrod Audi 5cyl turbo way back - it felt fast here, felt considerably faster down there. The power difference is enough that I toed the Lotus in a smidge when I ran it in Lincoln/Salina (the two places I'm likely to run it at sea level/close to it - the bump in power is significant. I REALLY wonder what it'll be like now. There's a somewhat outside chance I'll go to Nationals this year, but it'll be interesting if I do. I'm getting accustomed to the power, especially in higher gears/normal driving/need to pass that guy/wow, that was easy....but when I do get on it from a dead stop, it is still eye opening - and I've not really launched it yet. I ran a local event two weeks ago or so, the start was a slow 90 before the lights, so no need to launch it hard, but moderate launch - it spun the tires easily, asphalt lot and Toyo RRs, then, once pointed in the correct direction, it struggled for grip in 1st & the next turn - increasing radius 90, mid 2nd, room to get on it - came up REALLY fast. I ran toyorrs for the past month or so, street and autocross. Rationale was something I was comfortable on the street with, but more grip than a street tire. Kinda flawed logic, in hindsight - the Toyo rear offerings are not good, either a too-tall 255 or a too-small 235, and I'm not convinced they're much faster, if any, than a RE71R or Rival 1.5. I just put A7s on last night. The A7 is considerably larger than the Toyo in the "same" size (225/45). I'm running 6ul 15x8/17x9. will likely buy something better, turn these into rains at some point, but they were a cheap way to get into 8 & 9" wheels. I drove the car on the street last night - hoosiers turn in like none other. The car feels really good; naturally, I can't really load it on the street, but I'm optimistic. BMW club event tomorrow.

Transaxle - dunno, probably the e153. I'm going to be nice to this one as much as possible, I figure - hopefully correctly - that the stock box will last if I don't shock it much. So, gentleish launches, I'm not an abusive shifter anyway, so, hopefully, I won't have to deal with that for a while. When I do, e153 or something that makes the trans hard to break. That'd be awesome; I like prosolo, but I really DON'T like working on drivelines Saturday night at a pro; I've been down that road. yuck. I put the xtss clutch in it (I think xtss, the heavier duty of the two Acts Fred sells) and a BWR steel lightened flywheel. I don't mind the clutch at all; it is a bit abrupt, but not bad - that said, I've had "race-y" clutches in the past; my codriver has not, it was a steep learning curve for her. It is very streetable, though, no issues there.

LSD - yes, oem. My car was something of a unicorn - 06/sport pack/lsd/ohlins and stock shocks/bwr front bar/ssrs with spacers/etc. The previous-previous owner had set it up for SS, it seems - although I don't know who he is, I saw his name at one point, did not ring any bells.

One interesting side note - the traction control gets lit off a LOT more than it used to on the street. Turning right at a traffic light, moderate throttle, not a lot, just normal driving/I'd not change it if a cop were behind me, the traction control engages. I recently disabled my ABS, I can't remember if it was doing the t/c thing before i disabled it. I suppose it could be some weird thing where the abs sees 3 wheels rotating & no signal from the other (just yanked a wheel sensor plug for testing/ice mode), but dunno. I find that curious.

Anyway - yeah, I like it. A lot.


Iain
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2017, 07:04 AM
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Iain, I got 7th in my car at nats with just the rev 400 and 225/245 hoosiers. On day one, I was only .6 off the lead. Day 2 was the power course. What I'm saying is, the performance jump on square 275s isn't huge. It's big but not huge. I also made my stock trans last about a season and a half. I was doing a lot of events too. There is a lot to be gained performance wise with a few meaningful mods: Boost, shocks/springs/camber, and the biggest hoosiers you can fit under the body work. From there the increments are smaller. Locally, you can do very well with the basics and still have a streetable car.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2017, 07:25 AM
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Last month, I put a Blackwatch/BOE Rev400 on my 2006 Elise...
Did you upgrade the clutch? Flywheel? And if so, how do the new bits compare to the factory feel/driveability?

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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-17-2017, 09:58 AM
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Its probably better if I don't know. Aside from the benefits from rear toe adjustment, is the car appreciably better at accelerating and turning at the same time with 225/245 hohos, springs, and camber?
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-17-2017, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
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I'm fairly certain a sc car loses the same percentage of power as n/a wrt elevation, but we're used to it. I had a semi-hotrod Audi 5cyl turbo way back - it felt fast here, felt considerably faster down there.
At first I was thinking boost is boost, but I guess since the s/c spin speed is fixed by the pulley, it doesn't make the same boost at altitude. I'm still pondering the turbo side of that, maybe "it depends"...

Quote:
either a too-tall 255 or a too-small 235, and I'm not convinced they're much faster, if any, than a RE71R or Rival 1.5.
EDIT: I just looked up the RR, it does run strangely tall for the 255 size. Negates my previous question.


Last edited by Parko; 06-17-2017 at 12:31 PM.
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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-17-2017, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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Did you upgrade the clutch? Flywheel? And if so, how do the new bits compare to the factory feel/driveability?
Yes - Act XT/SS, BWR's lightened steel flywheel.

Pedal is a bit firmer than stock, engagement a bit more immediate. Not awful, very usable, but takes some driver-adjusting compared to the stock clutch.

I don't know how much the lighter FW helps in terms of rev, as it all went in at the same time, but from past experience, taking weight out of the clutch makes a considerable difference in how quickly the engine spins up.

I am of the opinion that it is tough to get "too light" of a clutch for street use, assuming you're using stock-style flywheel/pressure plate - that stuff only gets "so" light.

I've never driven a stock-style clutch that's "too light" or has adverse effects on streetability. I have driven multi-disc race clutches that are a bit too switch-like for stop and go traffic, but IMHO, the lightest flywheel you can get is good. Aluminum flywheels with steel friction inserts are sometimes a smidge lighter, but the steel friction inserts can do weird stuff. I like one-piece flywheels - nothing to come loose/expand/contract.

The XT/SS is a bit stiffer, engages more authoritatively than stock, but it is not bad, at ALL, for street driving, putting it on the trailer, etc. It is good.


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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 05:00 AM
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This past winter I installed the REV400, BOE surge tank, and BOE oil cooler. All with clam on. Anyone on the fence about the REV400, jump off the fence and do it. You won't be disappointed.

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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 07:01 AM Thread Starter
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This past winter I installed the REV400, BOE surge tank, and BOE oil cooler. All with clam on.
Ugh! Surge tank return line? Intercooler radiator? Those seem like they'd be nightmarish clam on.

End result is good, either way!


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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 07:36 AM
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Its probably better if I don't know. Aside from the benefits from rear toe adjustment, is the car appreciably better at accelerating and turning at the same time with 225/245 hohos, springs, and camber?
Oh gosh yes! They don't call Hoosiers "purple crack" for nothing!

IMHO, 2 sets of Team Dynamics wheels in 15x8 and 17x9. Run one with the 225/45R15F and 245/40R17 Hoosier(note these 245s are WIDE! you will need to play with camber and spacers to get them to fit but folks have done it)

On the other set, the "street" tires. 225/45R15F and 255/40R17R BFG Rival S. Great tires for around town, but massive grip. Better than 60 Treadwear A048s for sure. They are 200TW.

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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 07:45 AM
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Yes - Act XT/SS, BWR's lightened steel flywheel.

Pedal is a bit firmer than stock, engagement a bit more immediate. Not awful, very usable, but takes some driver-adjusting compared to the stock clutch.
Thanks for the info. I've always loved the way super light flywheels make the engine in a car rev similar to a motorcycle, but have had bad experiences in the past with light flywheels and small engines with no torque. I guess the REV400 has enough torque to keep the drivability.

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