Brake pedal goes too low?

[Charles Rozier]

The brake pedal on my Elise (1K miles now) drops to around 2" BELOW the throttle pedal when braking firmly (not even max braking). It doesn't seem to need bleeding, and pumping it doesn't help.

I am having a real hard time heel and toeing this car with the pedals set that way. No other car I've had has been like this.

Is this something wrong with my car, or is it just another ? Where does the brake pedal end up relative to the throttle pedal when braking your Elise? Thanks----

[zvezdah1]

It's been discussed as their seems to be a wide variance of how far the pedal goe. Mine when fully depressed is less than 1" from the top of the throttle pedal.

It must be adjustable in some way tho I don't know how, perhaps Stan or someone else?
Chris

[tonykomo]

Dunno about your ABS cars, but on mine it all depends on how old the fluid is and the condition of it. It can range from 2" to just just 1/2". Right now it's 1/2" and perfect because I bled the fluid and used brand new Castrol SRF. If you use old brake fluid that has not been kept sealed, chances are there is moisture in there. This compresses alot. You might also have some airpockets. Why do you think the brakes don't need bleeding? Have you washed the car recently and not driven it straight away?

[NevB]

The brake pedal on my 111R started to travel further [like yiour 2"] after 2000kms.

lotus service fixed it no charge and it now travels the "normal" distance before firming. Much better and very noticable

So take it in and have them check your brakes out.

NevB

[Charles Rozier]

Thanks for the feedback. Will have the brakes looked at (again)...

[JonOrangeElise]

Dear Lotus,

If you're reading this right now... For the love of god, please address this brake pedal issue! I have complete confidence that you folks would not have actually designed the car to have mushy brake pedal action, or to have a difficult heal-toe set-up. So, given that some people have "good" brake height, and others have "bad" brake height, this "problem" must be due to variances occuring at the end of the production line. I.e., we're not talking about an essential design characteristic.

So if you can get this issue addressed ASAP, your future customers -- like me; I'm looking at a Feb/March/April delivery -- would be eternally grateful.

(FWIW: During my test drive, brake height was really the only red flag I noticed; the rest of the driving experience lived up to the legend; it indicated a car that was purpose-built for high-intensity, car-guy-caliber driving. But not getting pedal height right? It's just doesn't compute. There must be something that's not quite being addressed before cars leave the assembly line or their rumored "track test" before they leave the factory.)

Chris, Randy, anyone with pull: Please nudge Lotus potentates over to this thread.

[Ground Loop]

Has anyone with bad pedal height or mush feel tried a full bleed?

I know Ford and other huge co's have elaborate setups to pull down a near-vacuum in the lines and fill them entirely without captured air.

Lotus might have a lower-tech setup that sometimes leaves air in the lines?

Like JonM3Coupe said, it's clearly not a design problem, just some kind of assembly issue.

[suv_bait]

I've heard from a fairly reliable source that unproperly bled brakes is well known problem on S1's as well as S2's.

The gentleman I spoke with said he needed to bleed the brakes 5 or 6 times before he got a firm pedal feel. He said a lot of it had to do with an awkward caliper design/mounting which traps air.

I felt the pedal in his S1 and it was much firmer than the Federal demo I test drove.

- John

[tonykomo]

Bleeding the brakes on the Elise is not that easy. You need to know what you're doing. I doubt a normal mechanic would do it properly. This from Elise-FAQ:

Bleeding the System

Probably the single biggest root cause of braking problems of the lot.

The Elise brake system is not easy to bleed using manual techniques, even the smallest air bubble trapped in the caliper will cause spongy brake pedal feel under extreme (track) use.

First point, use a pressure bleeder. Although the manual 2 man technique or 1 man bleeder kits can be used a pressure bleeder is not much more expensive and 10x as effective.

The front calipers really need to be removed to be absolutely sure of getting all the air removed, this is due to the design. Two pistons linked by a low link pipe causes air to be trapped in the inner piston unless the caliper is inverted (allowing the air to move through the link pipe to the outer piston recess), re-inverting the piston back to normal orientation and finishing the bleed will ensure that all the air is removed.

[Ground Loop]

Does the ABS system introduce new complications to the process?

Does a fluid flush require a ScanTool to cycle the ABS valves?

Probably doesn't matter for just bleeding air, but I know nothing about ABS guts.

I take it my MityVac won't cut it...

[suv_bait]

Originally posted by Ground Loop
Does a fluid flush require a ScanTool to cycle the ABS valves?

Good question. FWIW, I have bled the brakes for years on my M3 (which has ABS) without the use of any special electronic tool. I have never heard anyone mention a need for one.

I take it my MityVac won't cut it...

Huh, I hope it would. I was hoping to do this task with my Motive power bleeder.

- John

[Arno]

Originally posted by Ground Loop
Does a fluid flush require a ScanTool to cycle the ABS valves?

Officially: yes.

To access/flush the fluid 'trapped' in the ABS hydraulic unit internals you need to activate it's 'flush' setup using the proprietary scan tool.

Alternatively..

You can also do a flush, run the car and activate ABS a few times in a row (eg. on a gravel road) and then re-flush again.

That should renew the fluid pretty much. Some minor 'mixing' of old and new fluid will still be present, but only in small amounts.

Bye, Arno.

[zvezdah1]

It's great to have you continue posting here Arno, always find your posts extremely informative, much appreciated!!
Chris

[Vantage]

I asked this quesiton on Seloc: http://forums.seloc.org/viewthread.php?tid=33712

One person was able to adjust the pedal. Not sure how good a solution this is, as I would think Lotus would have done it, were it that easy to fix?

posted by cheeky_chops
I asked Fish (aka James) from Pistonheads what he had done and he kindly sent me this response.....

"There is a link rod to the servo unit from the
pedal. You need a 10mm spanner on the rod and a 17mm spanner on the lockdown nut. When you see it it is fairly obvious. Best way to get to it is lying on your back in the footwell with your feet sticking out the roof"

I have attached a piccy - you can see the big brass 17mm locking nut (mine was loose!) in the center. The 10mm one is part of the rod(which is just in the shadow) and moves the rod. From this position, turn it clockwise and then lock the 17mm nut anticlockwise.

It took a couple of goes/drives but pedal is MUCH better now, could do with a few more turns but my back is fooked I wouldnt suggest doing this if you have a bad back - you will never get out!

[Prolene]

Mushy, low activation point here as well. I plan to have Qais at South Bay check it out when I take it for 1K mi service. Also steering wheel is a bit canted to the right.

Much more fun to drive than my trackified S2000.

[EliseCat]

Mine is pretty mushy too.......and my steering wheel is canted slightly to the right as well.

Pedal seems to have gotten a little better over time (only have 500 miles so far) but still not what I would call solid!
Breaks are very effective though.....!!

[Modern Wedgie]

Looks like you guys might need one of these: http://store.sector111.com/hntpad.html

[Stan]

Those who have tried my car's pedals have noted that it is better than stock. All I've done is used Lotus's suggestions (now in the service manual, and replicating some of what was discussed in other threads) along with lateral pedal pad repositioning (stock pad) and tightening the rubber bushing bolt (helps with squishiness under braking).