Does Fuel Starvation also happen to N/A Lotus ? - LotusTalk

jbs · 10-14-2009, 01:41 PM

Reason why I'm asking is because I happen to experience this phenomena on circuits. The engine starts to stutter.
I have a N/A Elise R and I have read in the forum that this problem is more common with Supercharged cars.

I'm thinking about buying a Pro-Alloy Fuel tank, but I don't want to spend the money if it isn't going to solve the problem.

Curious is also the fact that it doesn't only happen in fast left corners but also on very tight (sharp) left corners.

Has anybody else, who drives a N/A Elise/Exige, experienced the same ?
The car is fitted with Öhlins btw.

I used to have a 2007 Elise R with sport pack suspension, and I never had any fuel starvation problems with that one.

Any help appreciated!

Demonized · 10-14-2009, 01:45 PM

Shouldn't be any different in a non-SC'd version.. other than you might carry more speed into the corner...

So, Swirl-pot, upgraded tank, whatever you feel is more suitable for you, would probably help.

jasper · 10-14-2009, 02:03 PM

short answer -- yes

Elise 323 · 10-14-2009, 04:21 PM

The stock USA gas tank has two baffles that are sealed against the tank walls with a material that deteriorates. Once the sealing material falls apart the gas can flow to the right side of the car away from the pick up. The long skiny shape of the tank makes the problem worse than a similar volume square tank. Unfortunately at 1 G in a left hand sweeper the engine will starve with 2-3 gallons in the tank.

I cut the tank in half, notice the sealer has fallen out from a lot of the perimeter of the baffle. The cut off tube is supposed to be the only route for the fuel to reach the pickup when the level is low.

Hope this answers your question.

marcinr · 10-14-2009, 05:08 PM

Wow, it's hard to believe that Lotus used some sort of sealant on the gaps, rather than making them tight fitting or welding them in. Gasoline is very caustic to most rubbery and sealant type things.

jbs · 10-14-2009, 11:27 PM

Thanks for your replies guys.
What also puzzles me is that I wasn't even running very low on fuel when it happened. I would say that I had the tank at least half full.

Elise 323 · 10-15-2009, 04:08 AM

The European tanks are different in construction and design than the US spec tanks due to different vapor recovery requirements.

You may notice the tube that is bent at a right angle. That is the connection between the middle section of the tank and fuel pump pick up section. When the system works correctly the majority of the gas will be "trapped" in the pump containing section. The fuel level indicator is attached to the pump and will read "falsely" high. What is the fuel reading after the car sits for 10 minutes after you exit the track? I've had 3-4 bars while on track and < 1 bar on the fuel gauge after the car sits for 20 minutes between sessions.

I get almost exactly 10 mpg on the track. Fill up after every 50-60 miles on the track and you won't have problems.

Hope this helps.

Diesel · 10-15-2009, 04:51 AM

To the OP -- I'm sure you've already considered this, but could you be bouncing off the rev limiter in those turns? The symptoms would be similar.

shinoo · 10-15-2009, 07:02 AM

Get the ProAlloy tank, it is superb and will fix your problem. Plus you get additional capacity.

Luckily you don't have a Federal car with all of our emissions related gear that makes the ProAlloy tank a track only solution in North America. Our V2tank has been an excellent fix with great results on the track - even down to 1 gallon of fuel.

darkSol · 10-15-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinoo

Get the ProAlloy tank, it is superb and will fix your problem. Plus you get additional capacity.

x1000!

The ProAlloy tank is amazing - had it on track a couple week's ago and ran on course with ONE BAR of gas indicated with no issues. It's nuclear... will add 2.3 gallons capacity and will save 9.6 lbs. to boot... WELL worth it IMHO!

jbs · 10-15-2009, 12:35 PM

I spoke to Lotus today and they said that this isn't normal and that I should have the fuel system checked.

Btw, how long in terms of seconds is the phenomena of Fuel Starvation ? because what I'm experiencing lasts no longer than 2-3 seconds, then it's gone. Here is a video of a Speedster Turbo who is suffering from fuel starvation at 3'55''

YouTube - Opel Speedster Turbo - Zolder 2009 (part 2)

and it seems to last for 15 seconds ?!

Oh and I'm 100% sure that I didn't hit the rev limiter!

robains · 10-15-2009, 01:57 PM

Are you monitoring fuel pressure and/or AFRs? That would help determine if the problem is fuel starve.

BOE have a good solution also (surge tank) that doesn't require removal of stock tank.

Prior to my BOE surge tank, I'd fuel starve with 9 gallons (but I run Hoosiers).

Rob.

shinoo · 10-16-2009, 06:46 AM

Ralph@V2 has monitored fuel pressure and it runs dangerously low BEFORE you even feel the cut-out. So you are likely starving more than you realize. Get it fixed at the tank - that is the source of the problem.

Hot Scot · 10-27-2009, 02:01 PM

I have the same problem in a 2007 Cup Car, with the fuel cell. I can run for approx 40 mins from full to engine cut out on extended or very tight left hand turns.

When starting up for a subsequent session the EMU has been in safe mode with the 6000RPM limit but no codes. Sending the "Clear Codes" signal has resolved this.

Does anyone know of a solution for the fuel cell cars?

Can anyone confirm if the rev limit and starvation are connected?

pbh5791 · 10-27-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbs

Thanks for your replies guys.
What also puzzles me is that I wasn't even running very low on fuel when it happened. I would say that I had the tank at least half full.

I took my 05 Lotus Elise to the track for the first time a couple of weeks ago and I encountered the same problem after coming off the oval banking and onto the front straight. When it happened I was at half tank so at first I didn't think it was fuel starvation. The same thing happened the following lap so I filled the tank and the problem went away until I got back down to a half tank.

I found that its not a problem with short sessions since I can refuel between runs but longer sessions I can get down to half a tank.

Does anyone have suggestions on aftermarket tanks?

turbophil · 10-27-2009, 06:23 PM

We'll be back in stock with Surge Tank Kits before too long. To my knowledge, it's still the most comprehensive improvement to the fuel system available in the form of a kit for the Lotus... But the fuel tank options certainly appear to work fine as well...

Best,

Phil

shinoo · 11-02-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbh5791

I took my 05 Lotus Elise to the track for the first time a couple of weeks ago and I encountered the same problem after coming off the oval banking and onto the front straight. When it happened I was at half tank so at first I didn't think it was fuel starvation. The same thing happened the following lap so I filled the tank and the problem went away until I got back down to a half tank.

I found that its not a problem with short sessions since I can refuel between runs but longer sessions I can get down to half a tank.

Does anyone have suggestions on aftermarket tanks?

Your baffle is probably separating allowing more fuel to spill through. Switch to our tank and you will fix this problem at the source.

aschen · 11-02-2009, 03:56 PM

Yes it definately does. I have fuel starvation after long sweeping left turns in autocross if my fuel level is low. This is on street tires...

10-14-2009, 01:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
jbs Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 163	Does Fuel Starvation also happen to N/A Lotus ? Reason why I'm asking is because I happen to experience this phenomena on circuits. The engine starts to stutter. I have a N/A Elise R and I have read in the forum that this problem is more common with Supercharged cars. I'm thinking about buying a Pro-Alloy Fuel tank, but I don't want to spend the money if it isn't going to solve the problem. Curious is also the fact that it doesn't only happen in fast left corners but also on very tight (sharp) left corners. Has anybody else, who drives a N/A Elise/Exige, experienced the same ? The car is fitted with Öhlins btw. I used to have a 2007 Elise R with sport pack suspension, and I never had any fuel starvation problems with that one. Any help appreciated! __________________ 2009 Starlight Black Elise R, Sports Pack, 240 Cup Rims, Yokohama A048 LTS, Öhlins Suspension Kit, AP-Racing Brake Kit, Chassis Brace Kit, Harness Bar with SCHROTH Harnesses, Lotus Motorsport Carbon Race Seats, AC delete, ECU Re-flash, 2bular 7x18" Titanium Exhaust, 2bular 4-2-1 Manifold, 2bular De-cat, gPAN Engine Oil Pan, Innovative 60A Engine Mounts

10-14-2009, 01:45 PM	#2 (permalink)
Demonized NOT ßANNED! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,718	Shouldn't be any different in a non-SC'd version.. other than you might carry more speed into the corner... So, Swirl-pot, upgraded tank, whatever you feel is more suitable for you, would probably help. __________________ 2005 Saffron Yellow Elise, Katana Supercharger, LSS Wheels, 2Bular exhaust & cat, rear panel delete, Cup Airbox, Volt / Oil temp gauge, Ohlins double adjustable coilovers, Dual Oil Coolers, S111 RTD Brace, Moroso Oil Pan, MicroMirror, S111 "V-Force" Harness bar, Manly Engine Mounts, Odyssey PC680 & RLS Bracket, Saikou Michi OCC, CF Scoops, CF Bootlid, CF Front Lip.

10-14-2009, 02:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
jasper thread killer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 357	short answer -- yes __________________ 2006 Exige (wife's car) 2005 Caterham Superlight (4 wheel motorcycle) 2004 Subaru STI (Urban Assault Vehicle) 1966 Lincoln Continental - in progress (dropped and chopped)

10-14-2009, 04:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
Elise 323 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: IN Posts: 92	Fuel Starve The stock USA gas tank has two baffles that are sealed against the tank walls with a material that deteriorates. Once the sealing material falls apart the gas can flow to the right side of the car away from the pick up. The long skiny shape of the tank makes the problem worse than a similar volume square tank. Unfortunately at 1 G in a left hand sweeper the engine will starve with 2-3 gallons in the tank. I cut the tank in half, notice the sealer has fallen out from a lot of the perimeter of the baffle. The cut off tube is supposed to be the only route for the fuel to reach the pickup when the level is low. Hope this answers your question. Attached Images __________________ Ardent Red, Biscut, Sport, Touring, Starshield, DA Ohlins, Adjustable front bar, 888's, stainless brake lines, Pagids, Sport ECU, Stage 1 exhaust, Cup Car Airbox, HIDs, Lotus driving lights, mini-mirror, LETSLA shifter, locking gas cap, painted engine covers, inprogress Last edited by Mr. Know : 10-15-2009 at 08:44 AM. Reason: resized attachment(s)

10-14-2009, 11:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
jbs Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 163	Thanks for your replies guys. What also puzzles me is that I wasn't even running very low on fuel when it happened. I would say that I had the tank at least half full. __________________ 2009 Starlight Black Elise R, Sports Pack, 240 Cup Rims, Yokohama A048 LTS, Öhlins Suspension Kit, AP-Racing Brake Kit, Chassis Brace Kit, Harness Bar with SCHROTH Harnesses, Lotus Motorsport Carbon Race Seats, AC delete, ECU Re-flash, 2bular 7x18" Titanium Exhaust, 2bular 4-2-1 Manifold, 2bular De-cat, gPAN Engine Oil Pan, Innovative 60A Engine Mounts

10-14-2009, 05:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
marcinr Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 211	Wow, it's hard to believe that Lotus used some sort of sealant on the gaps, rather than making them tight fitting or welding them in. Gasoline is very caustic to most rubbery and sealant type things.

10-15-2009, 04:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
Elise 323 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: IN Posts: 92	Fuel Starve The European tanks are different in construction and design than the US spec tanks due to different vapor recovery requirements. You may notice the tube that is bent at a right angle. That is the connection between the middle section of the tank and fuel pump pick up section. When the system works correctly the majority of the gas will be "trapped" in the pump containing section. The fuel level indicator is attached to the pump and will read "falsely" high. What is the fuel reading after the car sits for 10 minutes after you exit the track? I've had 3-4 bars while on track and < 1 bar on the fuel gauge after the car sits for 20 minutes between sessions. I get almost exactly 10 mpg on the track. Fill up after every 50-60 miles on the track and you won't have problems. Hope this helps. __________________ Ardent Red, Biscut, Sport, Touring, Starshield, DA Ohlins, Adjustable front bar, 888's, stainless brake lines, Pagids, Sport ECU, Stage 1 exhaust, Cup Car Airbox, HIDs, Lotus driving lights, mini-mirror, LETSLA shifter, locking gas cap, painted engine covers, inprogress

10-15-2009, 04:51 AM	#8 (permalink)
Diesel Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Sound Beach, CT Posts: 71	To the OP -- I'm sure you've already considered this, but could you be bouncing off the rev limiter in those turns? The symptoms would be similar. __________________ '05 Storm/Red, Touring, Hard Top, Lotus Sport Ohlins and Adjustable Anti-Roll Bar, Lotus Sport Harness Bar, Trim Shop Seats, Schroth Profi II 6-Point Harnesses, 2Bular 7" GT3 Exhaust, Braille Battery, Cup Car Wheels w/ AO48s

10-15-2009, 07:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
shinoo Project Nirvana Elise Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 2,709	Get the ProAlloy tank, it is superb and will fix your problem. Plus you get additional capacity. Luckily you don't have a Federal car with all of our emissions related gear that makes the ProAlloy tank a track only solution in North America. Our V2tank has been an excellent fix with great results on the track - even down to 1 gallon of fuel. __________________ shinoo sector 111 - tasty bits for your elise & exige

10-15-2009, 01:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
robains 2007 Exige S Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: CA, Bay Area Posts: 1,917	Are you monitoring fuel pressure and/or AFRs? That would help determine if the problem is fuel starve. BOE have a good solution also (surge tank) that doesn't require removal of stock tank. Prior to my BOE surge tank, I'd fuel starve with 9 gallons (but I run Hoosiers). Rob. __________________ "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan

10-16-2009, 06:46 AM	#13 (permalink)
shinoo Project Nirvana Elise Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 2,709	Ralph@V2 has monitored fuel pressure and it runs dangerously low BEFORE you even feel the cut-out. So you are likely starving more than you realize. Get it fixed at the tank - that is the source of the problem. __________________ shinoo sector 111 - tasty bits for your elise & exige

10-27-2009, 02:01 PM	#14 (permalink)
Hot Scot Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Cary, North Carolina Posts: 2	Starvation and 6000RPM limit I have the same problem in a 2007 Cup Car, with the fuel cell. I can run for approx 40 mins from full to engine cut out on extended or very tight left hand turns. When starting up for a subsequent session the EMU has been in safe mode with the 6000RPM limit but no codes. Sending the "Clear Codes" signal has resolved this. Does anyone know of a solution for the fuel cell cars? Can anyone confirm if the rev limit and starvation are connected?

10-27-2009, 06:23 PM	#16 (permalink)
turbophil Plug Whisperer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kansas City/ Overland Park Posts: 2,700 Images: 6	We'll be back in stock with Surge Tank Kits before too long. To my knowledge, it's still the most comprehensive improvement to the fuel system available in the form of a kit for the Lotus... But the fuel tank options certainly appear to work fine as well... Best, Phil __________________ '05 GG LSS Elise \| A Track Chariot \| BOE ClamHinge \| BOE TVS SuperCharger 280whp/180wtq \| EFI Standalone Engine Management \| BOE Fuel Surge System \| BOE Lotus Tow Package Please Visit My Website: www.boefabrication.com *Creativity & Innovation by Lotus People For Lotus People* Somethin ain't worth do'n, if it ain't worth do'n right

11-02-2009, 03:56 PM	#18 (permalink)
aschen My car is really small Join Date: May 2008 Location: Woodlands Tx Posts: 419	Yes it definately does. I have fuel starvation after long sweeping left turns in autocross if my fuel level is low. This is on street tires... __________________ 05 Safron Yellow "bumbleBee" Not sure I can ever go back to a regular car 84 930 turbo "no nickname yet" 06 WRX Wagon "silverbullet"

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