Final word on kids and passenger side airbag?

[MikeRoberts44]

I've got a 3 1/2 year old daughter and I have been trying to determine the correct solution for several years. I now have to take her or pick her up from pre-school occasionally, so the problem has moved up on the agenda.

At first, I was going to go with darkSol's solution of a Radio Shack switch. He describes it here: http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/kids-lotus-when-safe-47905-post835951/

Several had mentioned http://www.airbagonoff.com/ so I took a look at their site. Their "Swithches Compared" tab had an interesting discussion on their switch versus others. After studying their site, I decided Margo was worth $600 and I would use their switch. I asked them to contact me and downloaded the "Request for Air Bag On-Off Switch" form from their site to speed the approval for when they could install the switch.

In the request form, I had to certify that I had read the NHTSA information brochure Air Bags & On-Off Switches: Information for an Informed Decision. So I went back to Airbagonoff.com to look for the brochure. I did not find it. Then I searched the NHTSA site with the same luck: no brochure. My wife finally found it at http://www.safercar.gov/airbags/brochure/ I'm not sure why they make it so hard to find.

Anyway, in the Section THE ON-OFF SWITCH DECISION, I found this paragraph interesting:

Since the risk zone is the first 2-3 inches from the air bag cover, sitting back 10 inches provides a clear margin of safety. While getting back at least 10 inches is desirable, if you can get back almost 10 inches, the air bag is unlikely to seriously injure you in a crash and you probably don't need an on-off switch.

I use the Compass B-500 booster seat. With the cup holders removed, it fits nicely in the Elise seat. With Margo in the booster seat, she is 21 inches from the air bag cover. I do fully extend the seat belt so that it ratchets and stays tight. So far, she seems fine with staying properly seated in the booster seat.

I did receive my letter from NHTSA authorizing the installation of an on-off switch for the passenger airbag the other day. I have not yet heard back from Airbag onoff.com, but I am currently thinking that the safest way for Margo to ride in the Elise is with the airbag on.

If anyone sees any holes in this logic, I would certainly like to hear about it.

[solar]

It'd be nice if Lotus could weight in on this. I would imagine they've done some level of safety testing with small passengers.

[RoadDad]

Originally Posted by solar

It'd be nice if Lotus could weight in on this. I would imagine they've done some level of safety testing with small passengers.

They already have, in the owner's manual pages 7-8, 19-20, 23, and mainly 26-27 . Unfortunately they have to take the safest legal position (at least here in the colonies) and advise that children not ride in the car at all.

[solar]

Originally Posted by RoadDad

They already have, in the owner's manual pages 7-8, 19-20, 23, and mainly 26-27 . Unfortunately they have to take the safest legal position (at least here in the colonies) and advise that children not ride in the car at all.

Maybe the 2008 manuals for other territories will have better information, then. Since they'll have airbags now.

[RoadDad]

Originally Posted by solar

Maybe the 2008 manuals for other territories will have better information, then. Since they'll have airbags now.

The colonies = America. Take a look at the pages I referenced in your owner's manual. They all talk about how children should not ride in the car b/c it has airbags that can not be turned off.

[JoshS]

According to Unicef 41% of all injury deaths to children under 15 in industrialized nations are due to Auto Accidents. Sounds daunting, it's not, that's only 8,000 children out of probably 3-400,000,000. Obviously those figures are meaningless if it's your child. Is it less safe in a Lotus, yes. But, if you turn the air bag off, take all the precautions and drive safely with heightened awareness you probably couldn't be more safe then any other activity, don't let life pass you and them by.

[LARRY]

Originally Posted by Wingman

Has anyone been hurt/killed by an airbag ?

Opens with a shotgun blast in less than a 100th of a second...then deflates. Causes noses to break, permanent injuries as it saves lives.

But it's better to have it than not.

[mjf]

The info at http://www.safercar.gov/airbags/brochure/ was worth reading. Some facts about the "danger" of airbags:

* The force is greatest in the first 2-3 inches after the air bag bursts through its cover and begins to inflate.
* Occupants who are properly restrained and sit 10 inches away from the air bag cover will contact the air bag only after it has completely or almost completely inflated.

As of November 1, 1997, NHTSA has confirmed that 49 young children have died, all on the passenger side. 38 adults have died -- 35 drivers and 3 passengers. Out of 1,800,000 air bag deployments. Of the 49 children 12 were in rear facing infant seats, 29 were not wearing seat belts or any form of restraint. "The remaining 8 children included some who were riding with their shoulder belts behind them and some who were wearing lap and shoulder belts, but who also should have been in booster seats because of their small size and weight."

From what I can see, using the information available online, as long as you put your child in a booster and seat belt, you're likely better off with the airbag on. If you plan on having a child not use the seat belt for any reason, then yes, turn off the air bag.

As it stands, I don't think I'll be able to convince my kids mom to let me have them in the Elise regardless of how safe the government says it might be. Heck, she's not sure I should be in the car. =)

[matarleton]

I am planning on purchasing a Lotus soon. My kids will not ride more than around in the community with me. I will be keeping my Jeep Liberty for those times when I must take my children to activities and school. However, I take my daughter to school every morning and I know I will break down and take the Lotus. My level of awareness skyrockets when I am driving my children (not that I go clueless when I am by myself). So, I don't know. I made it through a childhood of no seat belts in convertibles and sports cars with a father that raced. Is it statistics or knowledge that moves us to make the decisions we do?

[tandemracer]

Originally Posted by mjf

The info at http://www.safercar.gov/airbags/brochure/ was worth reading. Some facts about the "danger" of airbags:

* The force is greatest in the first 2-3 inches after the air bag bursts through its cover and begins to inflate.
* Occupants who are properly restrained and sit 10 inches away from the air bag cover will contact the air bag only after it has completely or almost completely inflated.

As of November 1, 1997, NHTSA has confirmed that 49 young children have died, all on the passenger side. 38 adults have died -- 35 drivers and 3 passengers. Out of 1,800,000 air bag deployments. Of the 49 children 12 were in rear facing infant seats, 29 were not wearing seat belts or any form of restraint. "The remaining 8 children included some who were riding with their shoulder belts behind them and some who were wearing lap and shoulder belts, but who also should have been in booster seats because of their small size and weight."

From what I can see, using the information available online, as long as you put your child in a booster and seat belt, you're likely better off with the airbag on. If you plan on having a child not use the seat belt for any reason, then yes, turn off the air bag.

As it stands, I don't think I'll be able to convince my kids mom to let me have them in the Elise regardless of how safe the government says it might be. Heck, she's not sure I should be in the car. =)

So there is not even one recorded instance of a properly restrained child being killed by an airbag? Why then all the fuss of airbag switches? Seems like the focus should be on proper use of seatbelts and boosters.

[mjf]

Originally Posted by tandemracer

So there is not even one recorded instance of a properly restrained child being killed by an airbag? Why then all the fuss of airbag switches? Seems like the focus should be on proper use of seatbelts and boosters.

It could have been that "some of the 8" were properly restrained. Still, disturbing either way.

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by mjf

It could have been that "some of the 8" were properly restrained. Still, disturbing either way.

Still, the possibility of being injured by an air bag is minuscule compared to the possibility of being injured because there is no air bag.

If it's you or your loved one that does get killed, it doesn't seem like it is better using the air bags, but in general, it is. Kind of like the very few people that are thrown clear of their wreck because they don't wear a seat belt compared to the very many that are killed when not wearing one.

Nothing is 100% safe, you have to decide on the level of risk that is acceptable to you. Slight risk of driving a child in a Lotus compared to the increased fatality rate of overturning SUVs? Which is really safer? Which are you going to risk? I'm glad my kids are both grown - but I still worry about their safety when they are driving...

[mjf]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

Which is really safer? Which are you going to risk? I'm glad my kids are both grown - but I still worry about their safety when they are driving...

I still worry about my kids walking around the house! The 2 year old is in the "discovering how things work" phase, and likes to put lids on cups, open drawers, and plug/unplug anything electrical. The 7 year old can't walk across a room without tripping over his own feet. And the teenager, well, she's a teenager, enough said. =)

[holmz]

Originally Posted by matarleton

Is it statistics or knowledge that moves us to make the decisions we do?

In this case neither - It is Fear.
And fear is one of the best motivators around.

I am sooo glad I have neither airbags nor ABS.

[holmz]

Part of the injury mechanism for an airbags breaking the neck involves moving the head either forwards or backwards. (Let's ignoring the sideways impact for the moment)

To move the move the head backwards:
If the head was against the seat - then you would not get a broken neck, but rather a fractured skull.
In his case keeping the child against the seat would would help... This would involve seat belts or harnesses (baby seats have 5pt harnesses).

For breaking the neck forward through deceleration, you would have to hit the airbag onto the chest with the body away from the seat... Having the child firmly in the seat again means broken sternum or ribs - but no broken neck. The expression "between a rock and a hard place" comes to mind.

I would think that having the child harnessed in would be wisest start. The seats are tucked back under the roll hoop and down low inside the sills, and with a highback, and stiff. If your in the seat you've got the whole car's mass right behind you.

Helmet increase the mass of the head - which increases the risk of a broken neck. I would not put a helmet on a child without a HANS - but haven't thought that one through... Might be a better a better option for larger child. I dunno

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Looks like my boys (5 & 2) will finally be able to ride in the Lotus- Robert with Airbag Alterneatives is flying through Birmingham next month, and will be able to install a switch while he's here- (Wow, great service!)

I'm psyched!

I'll keep everyone posted!

Michael

Done!

Bob installed my switch Friday- He did a good job- Very professional-

Now I'm looking over the many booster suggestions in this thread-

[delSol97]

Do the Canadian Elises have cutoffs?

[Rat27]

Originally Posted by Rugbyduck

My younger boys...6 and 8, ride in the Elise all the time. I determined that it would more likely be safer for them in the proper seat, sitting back WITH the airbag than without. I find the size of the Elise makes it inheritly dangerous as it is an that the lack of a regulation bumper makes me lean toward the use of the airbag rather than without. Thoughts on this??

Just to clarify, the bumper regulation has nothing - nothing - to do with crashworthiness. The 2005, 2006 and early 2007 Elises meets all U.S. crash regulations. The waivers it received were for low speed bodywork damage and headlight sealing. The waiver the Elise received for the bumper regulation was for bodywork damage at parking lot speeds. It was a regulation championed by the insurance industry to try to reduce repair costs. It doesn't determine how well a car protects its occupants in a crash. The front crash structure in the Elise and the stout chassis combined with the airbags provide good impact resistance and allowed it to pass the crash tests with no issues.

[couldbemage]

Someone showed up at the rock store with his 6 year sitting in front of him on a motorcycle. In CA there is no age limit for motorcycle passengers.

Both of my babies have ridden in my miata. I just unplugged the passenger side airbag. That triggered a flashing light on the dash that I fixed with a piece of electrical tape.

I'd suspect massaging of figures from a source like safecar.org. They are invested in the idea that airbags are good. Nevermind that their 10 inch distance is way under what manufacturers recommend.

[teamturbo]

Originally Posted by RoadDad

They already have, in the owner's manual pages 7-8, 19-20, 23, and mainly 26-27 . Unfortunately they have to take the safest legal position (at least here in the colonies) and advise that children not ride in the car at all.

Lets face it. The Lotus is not a safe car. It can't sustain a standard 40MPH T-Bone or front impact conducted by the IIHS. I bet the results would be similar to Chinese car crash tests on youtube. This is the trade off for a light weight sports car that is hand built.