Lotus Elise Register

[Tyger]

Originally Posted by Miguel

If people don't want to give it is up to them, the only important thing is the year and the serial number for that year.

Granted that anyone could go and write VIN's down but this way they have an electronic way to do it, if they could cross reference with some other database (DMV's) they could find more information etc..

I'm not paranoid but it's understandable that some people are because identity theft happens.

I'll say to respect their inputs, if they made a mistake and want to change it then it will be ok.

But don't you see that given the model year and the serial number the ENTIRE VIN can be constructed??
And I don't see how VINs have anything to do with identity theft, since the owners' identities are not mentioned at all!
If you could steal someone's identity just by knowing a VI Number, all the crooks would have to do is look in anyone's front windshield. You might not be paranoid, but neither are you thinking this through logically.

[Randy Chase]

Originally Posted by ChrisB

The check digit would make the sort kind of screwy.

Just sort on the SN.

It would make it easier to see a linear progression as the list gets longer.

[Tyger]

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

Just sort on the SN.

It would make it easier to see a linear progression as the list gets longer.

If you just sort on the SN, isn't it possible that there will be "duplicate" SNs in different model years?
I don't know if the first serial number of '06 must be 0001, but with only four digits to work with, they would have to duplicate eventually, unless they are planning to stop at 10,000 total cars.

[Randy Chase]

I would be surprised if they ever made more than 9999 Elise cars in one model year, but it is possible.

On the other hand, it is conceivable that one could see a year overlap, so that may not work in the long run... ie 2005 SN and 2015 SN.

But regardless, it will not change anything. I am just requesting that the db output being shown on the screen, be done so in numerical order. So a MY 05 car with SN 0027 is before a MY 05 car with SN 2437. If there were two SN cars that had the same SN, they would be next to each other.

[Ground Loop]

Originally Posted by sandsmuseum

The one field I decided not to let you edit, because it is the column that gets indexed for those of you that understand databases, was the VIN field. Of course, that is the most difficult to enter reliably.

Perhaps reconsider using any of the entered data as your immutable key field. Just pick a random or sequential key and allow the VIN to be just another data field. The key need not be meaningful, and you can still stort by anything you like.

I usually enter a VIN "close" to my own, and still valid. If there are other people like me, then you will get collisions, right?

But back to the Published VIN issue, I have mixed feelings about it myself. On one hand, it's on every windscreen. On the other hand, it's not currently online in a public-accessible way. If there is some nefarious use for a VIN number, you would have to hack into the DMV or drive to my place to find out what mine is.

There have been other cars where incompetant or corrupt dealerships would cut keys given just the VIN number, perhaps with a bit of social engineering. That was one of the most commonly stated reasons for keeping the VIN as unpublished as possible... a thief would then have to visit the car twice, once to get the VIN first, then cut a key and again to steal it. Is this a valid concern? Does a published list of VINs make any thief's job easier, or is it just tinfoil hat paranoia?

Second, there is increased concern that insurance companies and car dealerships will use public information to refute claims. "This shady 'Ground Loop' character attends races, posts pictures and videos of him doing it, modifications to his car, and his VIN is confirmed right here. Clearly we can't honor that warranty/insurance claim." Real or imagined risk?

And yes, a model year and four-digit serial number is identical to a VIN.. the rest can be computed on the back of an envelope.

Personally, I'd rather that information be available only to people that visit my car in person.

[CALtd]

I don't know what is wrong but it won't let me back into edit the entry for S/N ending in 1102. It says the password is wrong but I know it isn't. How are you storing the entered password? Encrypted? If password cannot be cleared, then delete my entry and I will start over.

[sandsmuseum]

You all have valid points about the VIN, sorting and security. I am not sure what the right answer is and I look forward to the continued discussion. I will also be considering ways of securing the information.

Right now, the compilation display is sorting by the VIN. Unfortunately the X in the check digit affects the sort. I considered creating a date code that might allow a better sort and then index the database on that. I also figured people like Randy might want to sort on any of the fields. For example, you might want to sort on all LSS cars by build date and see if there is any consistency. Right now there is a compilation display which I think should be sorted based on manufacturing date. I will provide other compiled displays, sorted on other parameters, once I see what people want.

Perhaps the VIN is only accessable to the original person entering the vehicle. I can display the serial number only. That will prevent harvesting the serial numbers. On the other hand, I can let you enter the VIN now as a whole and then display it broken up so it cannot be harvested.

My preference is to have an initial entry created with a full VIN, including check digit. I can determine if it is valid and this prevents spam entries. I can provide a check box that prevents the check digit from being displayed or just not present it at all. It is certainly easy enough to discover what it is as the algorithm is public. Again, Xing it out will prevent any harvesting.

I will make the compilation display in sorted order, regardless of the X. It may take a couple of days....

Michael

[Ground Loop]

I guess I just don't see any significance at all to hiding or "X"ing the check digit. It's a computed digit, for cryin' out loud, the instructions for which are here multiple times in EliseTalk itself. Display it or don't, it makes no difference at all to anyone harvesting VINs.

VIN in full, with check digit obscured, or just the full serial number and year are all totally identical from a havesting/privacy point of view. If it makes your sorting easier, just use X for everyone's check digit -- you can always recompute them later.

If you want to obscure or blur the serial numbers, "X" out the last digit, one of the meaningful serial numbers. That way you know what batch of ten the car is in, but no more. That seems reasonable.

Otherwise, I'd just make up a VIN that's "close enough" within +/- 10 from mine and use that. The check digit is just a speedbump.

[Tyger]

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

I would be surprised if they ever made more than 9999 Elise cars in one model year, but it is possible.

On the other hand, it is conceivable that one could see a year overlap, so that may not work in the long run... ie 2005 SN and 2015 SN.

But regardless, it will not change anything. I am just requesting that the db output being shown on the screen, be done so in numerical order. So a MY 05 car with SN 0027 is before a MY 05 car with SN 2437. If there were two SN cars that had the same SN, they would be next to each other.

I think you sort of missed my point. How do we know that the 27th car in the '06 model year will not also have 0027 for the last four digits, just like your '05 car? And even if they just continue the SN for '06 where they left off in '05, all four-digit combinations will be used up within three or four years, tops.
That is why a chronological sort ought to begin with the model year digit.
QED

[Randy Chase]

Originally Posted by Tyger

I think you sort of missed my point. How do we know that the 27th car in the '06 model year will not also have 0027 for the last four digits, just like your '05 car? And even if they just continue the SN for '06 where they left off in '05, all four-digit combinations will be used up within three or four years, tops.
That is why a chronological sort ought to begin with the model year digit.
QED

I think you misread my post then (not surprising, I poorly worded it). I am agreeing with you. That is why I mentioned the potential problem we may face in 2015 when using both MY and SN we could still have a conflict.

MY and SN sort is what I would like to see.

[TimMullen]

One other point about the "X" for the Check Digit. It's quite possible that the value of the check digit is "X". The check digit uses a Modulus 11 function, which results in a remainder of 0-10 which is used as the check digit. If the check digit is 10, it is replaced with an "X" - it's all part of the algorithm ...

One other point - the VIN encodes the model year as a character. It's currently the same as the last digit of the year, which will work until 2009. 2010 will be encoded as an "A", 2011 as "B", etc. They won't have to reuse the model years character "5" for another 30+ years...

[Tyger]

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

I think you misread my post then (not surprising, I poorly worded it). I am agreeing with you. That is why I mentioned the potential problem we may face in 2015 when using both MY and SN we could still have a conflict.

MY and SN sort is what I would like to see.

Oh OK. Because I never implied that there would be 10,000 cars produced in a single year!
If Michael just asks people to enter the check digit onward, he can use the check digit to verify the valid number, then actually post (and sort by) the last eight digits of the VIN (all AFTER the check digit) and everyone should be happy (although anyone that really wants to can still derive the entire VIN from just that info).

[Tyger]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

One other point about the "X" for the Check Digit. It's quite possible that the value of the check digit is "X". The check digit uses a Modulus 11 function, which results in a remainder of 0-10 which is used as the check digit. If the check digit is 10, it is replaced with an "X" - it's all part of the algorithm ...

One other point - the VIN encodes the model year as a character. It's currently the same as the last digit of the year, which will work until 2009. 2010 will be encoded as an "A", 2011 as "B", etc. They won't have to reuse the model years character "5" for another 30+ years...

Good points. It's interesting that they use modulo 11 and not 10.
You can't use the letters I, O, or Q anywhere in a VIN, and for the 10th digit (model year) it looks like they might decide to leave off three more letters, or maybe two letters and zero, (they left off U and Z in the last decade), so that the next year that 5 will be used would be, yup, 2035!

[Ancient Wedgie]

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

Ahh... then yes, it is a program error. Model year /= build date year.

Model year ≠ build date year.

Very simple html once you find it. Use ≠

[Randy Chase]

On the other hand... /= was simple too.

[Ancient Wedgie]

You have me there. Yours was simpler. I stumbled on the code only by chance.

[Tyger]

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

Ahh... then yes, it is a program error. Model year /= build date year.

Yes, and it looks like about 2000 cars from the '05 model year were actually built in 2004! I wonder what the total numbers will be for the '05 Elise?

[sandsmuseum]

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

Just sort on the SN.

It would make it easier to see a linear progression as the list gets longer.

So, I am getting ready to clean up the Registry and make some changes.

Please let me know what you think of the following:

I will no longer display(!) the VIN in the compilation. I will provide the serial number portion only.

I plan on converting the database to include the complete build date (found on your sticker inside the driver's side door). Right now I only include the build month and get the year from the VIN, a bad assumption on my part.

For the compilation display, I will sort on the new build date. I will watch to see if the serial numbers are sorted correctly as a result and make changes if this is not(!) true.

What other sorted displays do people want to see besides chronological order? Does anyone want a general search capability? Are there any format or data entry changes people want to see?

Finally, the tough decision. I am still leaning towards wanting to have the full VIN when a new entry is created. I want to include the check digit. The reason I want to make it difficult(?) is to keep fake data from being entered. I know most of us could create a full list of legitimate numbers but hopefully if you are smart enough to do that you won't. Whereas the less intelligent might want to but will find it too difficult. Am I being overly paranoid? Since I will not be displaying the full VIN, most of you should feel comfortable doing this?

Should anyone want the VIN on display, I can always provide a check box that causes the checkdigit to be a blank when displayed. In any case, I will not provide the full VIN to anyone beyond the data entry stage.

Thoughts before I burn the midnight oil?

Michael

[Tyger]

Originally Posted by sandsmuseum

So, I am getting ready to clean up the Registry and make some changes.

Please let me know what you think of the following:

I will no longer display(!) the VIN in the compilation. I will provide the serial number portion only.

I plan on converting the database to include the complete build date (found on your sticker inside the driver's side door). Right now I only include the build month and get the year from the VIN, a bad assumption on my part.

For the compilation display, I will sort on the new build date. I will watch to see if the serial numbers are sorted correctly as a result and make changes if this is not(!) true.

What other sorted displays do people want to see besides chronological order? Does anyone want a general search capability? Are there any format or data entry changes people want to see?

Finally, the tough decision. I am still leaning towards wanting to have the full VIN when a new entry is created. I want to include the check digit. The reason I want to make it difficult(?) is to keep fake data from being entered. I know most of us could create a full list of legitimate numbers but hopefully if you are smart enough to do that you won't. Whereas the less intelligent might want to but will find it too difficult. Am I being overly paranoid? Since I will not be displaying the full VIN, most of you should feel comfortable doing this?

Should anyone want the VIN on display, I can always provide a check box that causes the checkdigit to be a blank when displayed. In any case, I will not provide the full VIN to anyone beyond the data entry stage.

Thoughts before I burn the midnight oil?

Michael

I think you will be doing yourself (and us) a favor by posting at least "Section Four" of the VIN, which is everything after the check digit, starting with the Model Year character. If you only include the last four digits, you will end up with different cars with the same last four, meaning that sorts using the last four will not be in chronological order after the first model year.
You might notice that a lot of your entries so far did not bother to include a build date (probably because they didn't know where (or care) to look for it, so I would be wary about using that field to sort on.
You should definitely ask for the full VIN when people enter data which will certainly help weed out spurious entries.

[andykeck]

Originally Posted by Tyger

I think you will be doing yourself (and us) a favor by posting at least "Section Four" of the VIN, which is everything after the check digit, starting with the Model Year character. If you only include the last four digits, you will end up with different cars with the same last four, meaning that sorts using the last four will not be in chronological order after the first model year.
You might notice that a lot of your entries so far did not bother to include a build date (probably because they didn't know where (or care) to look for it, so I would be wary about using that field to sort on.
You should definitely ask for the full VIN when people enter data which will certainly help weed out spurious entries.

You know, though, that once you have that, you have the info to reconstruct the whole VIN with ease, right?