Lotus over Porsche GT3, You Bet!

[Conan]

I thought the "fair comparison" came from the instructor and not Phil's passing other cars?

My instructor (a great guy and excellent driver) from Saturday, was driving both a C6 Z06 and a 997 GT3. He just _had_ to take my car for a spin and figure out what the deal was...

He drove my car at maybe 6-7 10ths (he didn't want to wreck it, which was fine with me...my last instructor did put it in a ditch). Even at 6-7 10ths, he just couldn't believe the ride. He thought the power and crispness of the car were awesome and the connection to the road was flawless. After his drive, he was grinning ear-to-ear. He said the GT3 doesn't hold a candle to the car and that the GT3 is simply a big boat by comparison.

Sounds like a very relevant opinion to me.

Great story, Phil!

[Dmbrown34]

Originally Posted by VGM911

Maybe I'm missing something (which is highly possible since I don't run DE events). If the DE events are not races (rather, they're schools that teach high speed driving skills), then how does passing everyone in your run group prove the superiority of either the car or the driver that's doing the passing? And how would you know whether your success in passing is the result of driver skills or of vehicle dynamics?

Not trying to provoke anything or anyone with this question, but just pondering whether the conclusions are justified. Thanks.

Men have Testicles. They cause men to compete whenever there is a chance. The answer is simple...whatever car pass you is both a car and has a better driver.

[Conan]

With regards to how much it means when you pass someone at a DE....

It means absolutely nothing. You MAY be a better driver. Your car MAY be a better car(ie: faster, better handling). But there's no way to know. It's not a race. I drive in run-groups 3 and 4 and I've passed many, many cars at the DE's I've attended. Some cars would be considered much much faster than the car I was driving. It doesn't mean I'm a better driver or that my car has somehow been magically transformed into a supercar. I've passed GT3's in my ex-350Z and have passed a few Porsche Turbo's and Z06 Vette's in my Elise. You don't know what that other driver is doing. They may just be driving at 6/10 and taking it easy.

[CCR Elise]

Originally Posted by Conan

With regards to how much it means when you pass someone at a DE....

It means absolutely nothing. You MAY be a better driver. Your car MAY be a better car(ie: faster, better handling). But there's no way to know. It's not a race. I drive in run-groups 3 and 4 and I've passed many, many cars at the DE's I've attended. Some cars would be considered much much faster than the car I was driving. It doesn't mean I'm a better driver or that my car has somehow been magically transformed into a supercar. I've passed GT3's in my ex-350Z and have passed a few Porsche Turbo's and Z06 Vette's in my Elise. You don't know what that other driver is doing. They may just be driving at 6/10 and taking it easy.

Respectfully sir, I disagree with you. One thing that is paramount when on the track is situational awareness and if you are a driver that has no idea what the cars and drivers around you are doing, then you do not need to be in a 3 or 4 run group yet. But to clarify my experience a little more. When you happen to have a great session and a few of the participants can have a spirited exchange on the track, good sportsmanship follows by stopping by where they are paddocked and share the moment with them. The events that I attend have a very close knit group of folks participating and it is common to go talk to the folks you just ran with to verify assumptions like have been posted previously in this thread.

My original post indicated that a GT3 "should" better our times but it simply isn't happening in my neck of the woods very frequently. How do I know if the driver of a GT3 is running what he considers 10/10ths? I simply ask.

I'm sure it hurts Porsche owner feelings when they hear comments like have been posted in this thread. Heck, if I had spent that much money I would not be very happy either. I'm just stating the facts of my experiences.

[Conan]

Originally Posted by CCR Elise

Respectfully sir, I disagree with you. One thing that is paramount when on the track is situational awareness and if you are a driver that has no idea what the cars and drivers around you are doing, then you do not need to be in a 3 or 4 run group yet.

Obviously you are implying I don't know what is happening on track and that I shouldn't be in RG 3 or 4. I'm not going to try and defend myself on an internet forum, though. I'll just say that it seems pretty arrogant considering you have never been on track with me.

[foosh]

Originally Posted by CCR Elise

Respectfully sir, I disagree with you. One thing that is paramount when on the track is situational awareness and if you are a driver that has no idea what the cars and drivers around you are doing, then you do not need to be in a 3 or 4 run group yet. But to clarify my experience a little more. When you happen to have a great session and a few of the participants can have a spirited exchange on the track, good sportsmanship follows by stopping by where they are paddocked and share the moment with them. The events that I attend have a very close knit group of folks participating and it is common to go talk to the folks you just ran with to verify assumptions like have been posted previously in this thread.

My original post indicated that a GT3 "should" better our times but it simply isn't happening in my neck of the woods very frequently. How do I know if the driver of a GT3 is running what he considers 10/10ths? I simply ask.

I'm sure it hurts Porsche owner feelings when they hear comments like have been posted in this thread. Heck, if I had spent that much money I would not be very happy either. I'm just stating the facts of my experiences.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. What I interpreted Conan to be saying is:

1) You have no clue how hard a particular person is pushing, or is capable of pushing, in a DE. They may be more concerned about working on their technique and their lines without pushing to their particular limit in a given session.

2) What a less experienced/talented driver PERCEIVES as 10/10ths, may be 5/10ths to a more experienced/talented driver.

For both reasons, it is virtually impossible to judge the overall capability of any given car at these events, just as he said above.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by Conan

I thought the "fair comparison" came from the instructor and not Phil's passing other cars? Sounds like a very relevant opinion to me.

Great story, Phil!

That's correct. The thread kind of morphed a bit into a kill thread a bit, and that's fine, as we did plenty of p-car killing... And Like I said, whether in 3 or 4, I'll take some instruction anytime. There's always room for improvement...

In this case, the thing that put me on cloud 9 (besides walking over some fast P-cars), was the instructor's comments...

As we've all said in 7 different ways, there are drivers that know how to drive faster cars to the limits and they will be faster than an equally capable driver in the Lotus-- even a pretty well equipped one like mine, cup cars, etc... No doubt... BUT, when a guy who's driven many of the top of the line track cars, like a GT3 and new ZO6 to their limits (or close to it), honestly looks you in the eye with the enthusiasm of an 12 year old and wants your Lotus more than a GT3, you know you've got a sweet ride.

Gentleman, we truly have the cream of the crop with these little cars. There will always be a small handful of cars faster than we are. There will always be one or two cars that you just can't catch at the track. However, good luck finding a one stop shop that is as much fun to drive on the track as our cars are, is capable of pulling a trailer, taking your sweetie out to dinner with the top down, still gets 30mpg on the way to grocery store, and doesn't over-heat. About the only thing passing me at the track is either a FRC or an all out race car with one seat and no interior that came in on a trailer.

GT3 and Z06, eat your heart out! You lose

Best,

Phil

[CCR Elise]

Originally Posted by foosh

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. What I interpreted Conan to be saying is:

1) You have no clue how hard a particular person is pushing, or is capable of pushing, in a DE. They may be more concerned about working on their technique and their lines without pushing to their particular limit in a given session.

2) What a less experienced/talented driver PERCEIVES as 10/10ths, may be 5/10ths to a more experienced/talented driver.

For both reasons, it is virtually impossible to judge the overall capability of any given car at these events, just as he said above.

Certainly didn't mean to offend. I used the words respectfully and humble in different posts above. Conan, my apologies if my comments were taken to be arrogant. That was not my intent. I welcome all constructive criticism and I try to present myself on track weekends as always willing to learn more and always willing to listen. I will never reach the level of talent that I would like to have. I am humble.

I agree that the driver will make the biggest difference with the way a car performs. Turbophil and Conan, you guys know who is pushing and who is not just by observing their driving patterns. If any of us is lucky enough to find ourselves on track with clear road ahead and not a lot of traffic, we are going to enjoy the moment. I have had the pleasure of playing cat and mouse with GT3s as well as some other very formidable cars during my track days. After such a session, either I will go talk to the driver who I was participating in the chase or they will come to me. Usually, the first question out of both of our mouths is, were you driving 10/10ths. All I am saying is I have yet to be told by any applicable driver that they were just experimenting or going for only 6/10ths or whatever the measurement. They get just as much adrenaline pumping as we do. I always try to error on the side of safety so yes, there will be some laps that are conservative so as to be safe to me and the other participants around me but there are also times when it's just me and someone else and that's when we drive to more of our abilities. We talk about it. We compare approaches. It's part of the fun.

Again, I am so sorry anyone took offense. I would welcome the opportunity to get on track with you guys. Then we could compare techniques and enjoy each others company after the session.

[FLuXeXigeS]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Sorry but equal drivers and equal tires GT3 will kill an Elise, autocross, DE, club racing you name it.

lol most of us know that...but how about a gt3 v exige s?

or gt3rs v exige s240?

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by FLuXeXigeS

lol most of us know that...but how about a gt3 v exige s?

or gt3rs v exige s240?

If it's a 997 GT3, it's probably faster than an 07 Exige S, 996 would be closer
A 997 GT3RS is definitely faster than a S240 (which is barely faster than an 07 S)

[mopho]

Originally Posted by CCR Elise

I have had the pleasure of playing cat and mouse with GT3s as well as some other very formidable cars during my track days. After such a session, either I will go talk to the driver who I was participating in the chase or they will come to me. Usually, the first question out of both of our mouths is, were you driving 10/10ths. All I am saying is I have yet to be told by any applicable driver that they were just experimenting or going for only 6/10ths or whatever the measurement. They get just as much adrenaline pumping as we do. I always try to error on the side of safety so yes, there will be some laps that are conservative so as to be safe to me and the other participants around me but there are also times when it's just me and someone else and that's when we drive to more of our abilities. We talk about it. We compare approaches. It's part of the fun.

But as noted, it is not just about everyone driving 10/10ths or not, their 10/10ths may be different than yours.
Even taking effort out of the equation, there still lies talent. The ability to eek out a couple of mph's here and there because one is smoother than the other, can make a huge difference

I once ran a GT3 RS against a friend of mine who has more talent than I do, he left me for dead and I was trying... oh and he was driving a stock Volvo C30

Same friend, track to ourselves, I was in a 08 Subaru STI w/300hp and all the electronic doodads, he was in a Lotus Eleven replica with 75hp and skinny tires and it was all I could do to keep up with him around the track (and I was probably driving more to my limit than he was)
Basically, he was much better at keeping his momentum up than I was and had less to do with how close to our personal limits we were (or the cars we were driving)

There is really too many variables at track days to compare cars and the only reasonable way is have the same driver test each car respectively for comparison.


Having driven both the GT3RS and an Exige S on the road and track, I can see where people would find the Lotus more enjoyable as a track car. The Lotus arguably feels more nimble and responsive and it would be more comfortable to drive to the limit. I am sure once mastered, someone could be equally as fast in the Lotus as the GT3

As a road car, the GT3 (and RS) is sex though


I would be interested to hear Jacks opinion on the GT3RS vs Lotus since he owned both.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by CCR Elise

I would welcome the opportunity to get on track with you guys. Then we could compare techniques and enjoy each others company after the session.

+1

Originally Posted by FLuXeXigeS

lol most of us know that...but how about a gt3 v exige s?

or gt3rs v exige s240?

The extra HP and DF really narrows the gap... I probably have comparable HP to many of the cup cars (if not more) and a pile of DF to go along with it. Even the Le Mans driver in the GT3 wasn't that much faster---really fairly comparable. Both of us were driving hard, 8 to 9 tenths... If I was little more ambitious and carried more speed down the straights, subsequently into the turns, I think the GT3 would be a pretty even match for my car... The reality is the instructor driven Z06 was the guy to beat... It's big and numb and requires a gold chain to drive it, but it can really fly with the right pilot... But as he said, neither the Z06 or the gt3 were the car that the Lotus was... and had been driving both that day...

Best,

Phil

[VGM911]

Originally Posted by Scrumpot

Warning:
Porsche Owner/interloper in our midst!

LOL.

Actually - Hey Jerry!
Great to see you lurking. Hope to see you again soon too, at another one of Bull's runs. Hope all is well!

So, when we gonna make YOU a Lotus "convert" (Like Bull - you been watching his signature line) too?

Cheers,
-Grant

Howdy!

I'm watching Bull's latest moves, and it's also true that I'm considering an Elise, as well. I'm in no hurry, so I'm reading Lotus Talk as often as I can - I enjoy it very much and I'm learning alot, too. Hope to see you soon, Grant!

Your friendly Porsche interloper

[VGM911]

Originally Posted by foosh

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. What I interpreted Conan to be saying is:

1) You have no clue how hard a particular person is pushing, or is capable of pushing, in a DE. They may be more concerned about working on their technique and their lines without pushing to their particular limit in a given session.

2) What a less experienced/talented driver PERCEIVES as 10/10ths, may be 5/10ths to a more experienced/talented driver.

For both reasons, it is virtually impossible to judge the overall capability of any given car at these events, just as he said above.

Given the role the driver plays in how fast any car goes around the track and the variables that may influence his effort or actual performance, I find Foosh's points to be well-made. Therefore, I agree.

By the way, I'm having fun watching the different viewpoints being voiced on this issue and the pride you guys have in your cars.

[FLuXeXigeS]

Originally Posted by turbophil

The extra HP and DF really narrows the gap... I probably have comparable HP to many of the cup cars (if not more) and a pile of DF to go along with it. Even the Le Mans driver in the GT3 wasn't that much faster---really fairly comparable. Both of us were driving hard, 8 to 9 tenths... If I was little more ambitious and carried more speed down the straights, subsequently into the turns, I think the GT3 would be a pretty even match for my car... The reality is the instructor driven Z06 was the guy to beat... It's big and numb and requires a gold chain to drive it, but it can really fly with the right pilot... But as he said, neither the Z06 or the gt3 were the car that the Lotus was... and had been driving both that day...

Best,

Phil

gotcha...i didnt think it was a clear night and day difference, the cars are pretty even, IMO, it really just comes down to the driver

[Tracktimeplz]

Speaking of volvos...one of these was trying to keep up with me through a section of round-a-bouts late the other night.

Volvo C30 Specifications

I left him far behind and he did a fly by going double the speed limit when we hit the straight.

Sounded good with what appeared to be a stock exhaust.

[robains]

Sounds like this is a good opportunity for a big lotus track get together since nothing can keep up

Now, to make this more of an event of modified street legal cars, add a rule that all cars must be able to drive to the track from the owners point of origin (aka no trailing the car to 1 mile away from track entrance and then drive it in).

Why I suggest "drive to the track", is that once a car is destined for Trailering, it's no longer really a valid car to compare to any other street car (like the GT3 for example), it's now a hybrid race car or some sort.

Sorta like the One Lap of America concept, but make this just a single track event.

[CCR Elise]

Originally Posted by robains

Sounds like this is a good opportunity for a big lotus track get together since nothing can keep up

Now, to make this more of an event of modified street legal cars, add a rule that all cars must be able to drive to the track from the owners point of origin (aka no trailing the car to 1 mile away from track entrance and then drive it in).

Why I suggest "drive to the track", is that once a car is destined for Trailering, it's no longer really a valid car to compare to any other street car (like the GT3 for example), it's now a hybrid race car or some sort.

Sorta like the One Lap of America concept, but make this just a single track event.

That sounds like alot of fun. I'm up for it. Let's start talking about a plan of action. Anyone want to start?

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by CCR Elise

That sounds like alot of fun. I'm up for it. Let's start talking about a plan of action. Anyone want to start?

Hmmm, one guy is in GA and the other in CA... Let me start...

I think all ya'll should just meet in the middle in place like Kansas. Heck the SCCA is even head quartered there... I'm willing to make the sacrafice and the drive if you are

-P

[CCR Elise]

I'm willing to make the trip. Middle of the country is fair with me. I'm sure our little banter on this thread isn't unique to track enthusiasts of all kinds. A good central location could be billed as "the" meet of the year. I wonder what the general consensus is for those of us that would really make the trip?

I really want to run with more Lotuses. They are pretty few and far between around these parts.