Lotus over Porsche GT3, You Bet!

[GTI-Guy]

Originally Posted by Conan

With regards to how much it means when you pass someone at a DE....

It means absolutely nothing.

Thanks for saying that. Many guys draw waaay too many conclusions from what happens in a DE. And I say that from the perspective of a DE Instructor

[XPcarguy]

Originally Posted by VGM911

Maybe I'm missing something (which is highly possible since I don't run DE events). If the DE events are not races (rather, they're schools that teach high speed driving skills), then how does passing everyone in your run group prove the superiority of either the car or the driver that's doing the passing? And how would you know whether your success in passing is the result of driver skills or of vehicle dynamics?

Not trying to provoke anything or anyone with this question, but just pondering whether the conclusions are justified. Thanks.

This is a great observation. That stuff really doesn't mean anything. My method was never beating the guys on track b/c the first time I got passed by a Sentra, I realized how huge skill is. Considering, I dropped my 1st best lap by 20 seconds in 1 year, driver skill is huge. So what I did was look at car club leader boards and lap records. If I passed a Z06 or a 911 Turbo (which I did), I wouldn't get too cocky about my Boxster S. But if I had ever beaten the class record for a 911 Turbo, you can believe I never would have shut up about it.

For what it's worth, here are some key lap times from cars I've seen on track personally, seen in video, or found on car club sites as officially recorded TT or race laptimes.

Best Fed Elise time so far: 2:07 (someone who knows better, feel free to correct me)
Spec Miata lap record: 2:07
Best 1997 Boxster (the slow one with only 200bhp): 2:11
My best Boxster S time (the first gen with 250bhp): 2:11
C5 Z06 on street tires: 2:09
C5 Z06 on hoosiers: 2:02 (IIRC)

From the OP's story, I just take that the GT3 owner really enjoyed the way the Elise drove. Heck, he might even have been faster in an Elise than he was in his GT3. I knew a guy that bought a Boxster S and set a personal best. He traded up to a Z06 and never matched it. Then he traded up to a Viper and never matched his Z06 best.

There are 2 reliable ways to compare performance of 2 different cars.

1) Put a very very skilled driver in both and let him have free reign to get to know each car and really push each car. DE instructors rarely fit this category. SCCA racers with a few seasons and better do.
2) Just read up on the best times from 1 car and compare to the best times from another car. With SCCA, PCA, Lotus Club, BMW Club, etc, there is a lot of data to look at. Over the years, the sample size is big enough that you can give some merit to the respective "best-of"s

[robains]

KS is good with me so long as we get a good long track -- Heartland Park Grand Prix config would be about as short as I would like (2.5 mi).

[rufus]

I know, it might not contribute to this discussion and it might be a bit hard to understand since it's german,

BUT the talking ain't important anyways and it does involve a GT3, a Lotus and a race track.

YouTube - Auto Mobil - Porsche GT3 RS vs. Lotus auf der Nordschleife

[FLuXeXigeS]

great video...needs a translation for arguments sake LOL

thanx

[robains]

I'm gonna run that track ... errrr ... rally ... errr ... road some day soon. I've long since memorized the version for GTR2 and GPL simulations, every single corner, bump, hill, brake zone, surface change, etc. etc.

Ran a simulated event a month or so ago with a real FIA GT driver, needless to say he kicked my ass by a full 10 seconds -- he got an 8:00 flat and I got an 8:10. I guess running the real course has some advantages

Too bad the video was just a setup/fun-run and not a real see who can post the fastest lap.

[Harponian]

The Stig's lap times - Top Gear on BBC Two - Top Gear

My Elise may not be the fastest, but I have the most fun in my car at HPDE's. The way the Elise speaks to you around a track makes for an amazing experience. To me HPDE's are about the experience and a Lotus will never dissapoint.

I have had instructors drive my car and they all get out giddy and they all same the same thing. INTENSE! Everyone who has ever driven it always considers buying one, but ultimately there are two things that makes them give up the dream.

1. It is a trailer car. Even if you decide to run on street tires you still piss blood when you arrive at the track.

2. It doesn't function well as a daily driver. Getting in and out is just too much.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by Harponian

The Stig's lap times - Top Gear on BBC Two - Top Gear

My Elise may not be the fastest, but I have the most fun in my car at HPDE's. The way the Elise speaks to you around a track makes for an amazing experience. To me HPDE's are about the experience and a Lotus will never dissapoint.

I have had instructors drive my car and they all get out giddy and they all same the same thing. INTENSE! Everyone who has ever driven it always considers buying one, but ultimately there are two things that makes them give up the dream.

1. It is a trailer car. Even if you decide to run on street tires you still piss blood when you arrive at the track.

2. It doesn't function well as a daily driver. Getting in and out is just too much.

That list is almost as dumb as the on-going nurburgring comparisons. I'm sure a GT3 is not slower than a base Cayman and an Elise is not slower than a Focus ST. They run that track in rain, shine, sleet and it has a drastic difference on times but they don't list the track conditions on the list.

[robains]

A trailer car?? Huh? Don't follow you on that one at all.

If the Elise/Exige/S/S240 were trailer only cars, I wouldn't have bought one. If I wanted a trailer only track vehicle, I would get a Pro Formula Mazada from $50K-$100K and go race it, certainly NOT a Lotus that has passed all the necessary regulations to be street legal in the US. A Pro Formula Mazda would smoke a GT3, a Lotus, a Z06, a Viper, a Lambo, a Ferrari (ok not an F1 Ferrari), a just about anything that started life as a street car.

[ocelot27]

This is a good comparo:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ature/(page)/1

And my favorite part:

"Compared with the R8 and 911 Turbo, the Exige S was slower down the front straight by 13.9 mph and a whopping 21.4 mph, respectively, yet the Lotus ran a quicker lap than those two. In the twisty parts, the Lotus outgripped everything, especially in tricky Sector Four, where its time of 14.5 seconds was the best of the day."

-john.

[robains]

Yeah, but if you look at the chart, it would appear the Vette is still the best lap bang for the buck. In fact, Chevy have 3 in the top 10 - ouch!

But don't dispear, go get yourself some ForcedFed sized power

[Terry]

I have a 997 GT3 and a NA 2005 Elise. I have tracked both extensively and I am an instructor. That doesn't mean I am fast but I know my way around. Turbophil's car must have some great mods because the GT3 is just faster and better than the NA Elise in most circumstances. A tight and twisty course will even things out a lot but our cars have no drive out of the corners - we can go in fast but can't accelerate much coming out. The strengths of the Lotus are especially bad in DEs where there is no advantage in outbraking someone, you can't pass in the corners, and your top speed is 122 mph for all practical purposes. Fast tracks are even worse - try Watkins Glen or VIR and compare lap times between the GT3 and the Elise. Don't get me wrong - I still love my Elise but facts are facts.

[turbophil]

Terry,

I agree and you're right, stock NA Elise to GT3 isn't a great comparo... I do have 1 or 2 mods that help me come out of the corners and even maintain a bit more corner speed in the corner than an out-of-the-box Elise... Yip, just 1 or 2

Ofcourse the point isn't that the car is the absolute fastest street legal grocery getter on the track (perhaps close though). It was more along the lines of your last sentence in that the Lotus (albeit one with a couple mods) is just a helluhvuh fun car to drive when comapred to the GT3 with twice the feel, half the price, and comparable speed on the track...

Best,

Phil

Originally Posted by Terry

I have a 997 GT3 and a NA 2005 Elise. I have tracked both extensively and I am an instructor. That doesn't mean I am fast but I know my way around. Turbophil's car must have some great mods because the GT3 is just faster and better than the NA Elise in most circumstances. A tight and twisty course will even things out a lot but our cars have no drive out of the corners - we can go in fast but can't accelerate much coming out. The strengths of the Lotus are especially bad in DEs where there is no advantage in outbraking someone, you can't pass in the corners, and your top speed is 122 mph for all practical purposes. Fast tracks are even worse - try Watkins Glen or VIR and compare lap times between the GT3 and the Elise. Don't get me wrong - I still love my Elise but facts are facts.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Terry

I have a 997 GT3 and a NA 2005 Elise. I have tracked both extensively and I am an instructor. That doesn't mean I am fast but I know my way around. Turbophil's car must have some great mods because the GT3 is just faster and better than the NA Elise in most circumstances. A tight and twisty course will even things out a lot but our cars have no drive out of the corners - we can go in fast but can't accelerate much coming out. The strengths of the Lotus are especially bad in DEs where there is no advantage in outbraking someone, you can't pass in the corners, and your top speed is 122 mph for all practical purposes. Fast tracks are even worse - try Watkins Glen or VIR and compare lap times between the GT3 and the Elise. Don't get me wrong - I still love my Elise but facts are facts.

Originally Posted by VGM911

Given the role the driver plays in how fast any car goes around the track and the variables that may influence his effort or actual performance, I find Foosh's points to be well-made. Therefore, I agree.

By the way, I'm having fun watching the different viewpoints being voiced on this issue and the pride you guys have in your cars.

100% concur with both of the above ....it's all driver dependent for the most part. You can not draw any definitive conclusions about whether a car is faster than another based upon who you pass or don't pass on a race track -- there are too many variables at play.

FACT: A GT3 is faster than a S/C Lotus, even Frank's former 300 RWHP car, driven by a "qualified" driver. Everyone loved the video of Craig Stanton turning 1:27's at WSIR in the Frankmobile and that is, in fact, a good time. Well, Craig can and has turned significantly better lap times in a stock 997 GT3 with it's standard Michelin Pilot Sport (R-compound) tires.

This last weekend at a DE at WSIR (always referred to as a high HP track) proved the same point...I'm passing modified 997 TT's, Z06's, RS's etc in my Cup255. People come up to me after the run session telling me how impressed they are and that my car must be really FAST. Truth of the matter, I was just driving better than them -- it had nothing to do with my car being faster.

There are plenty of faster cars than a Lotus, but I still prefer to track my Lotus over all of my previous thoroughbreds...GT3RS, F430, Challenge Stradale, 996GT2... the Lotus is much easier to drive and makes me look better than I really am.

[dmh]

Originally Posted by Jack

100% concur with both of the above ....it's all driver dependent for the most part. You can not draw any definitive conclusions about whether a car is faster than another based upon who you pass or don't pass on a race track -- there are too many variables at play.

FACT: A GT3 is faster than a S/C Lotus, even Frank's former 300 RWHP car, driven by a "qualified" driver. Everyone loved the video of Craig Stanton turning 1:27's at WSIR in the Frankmobile and that is, in fact, a good time. Well, Craig can and has turned significantly better lap times in a stock 997 GT3 with it's standard Michelin Pilot Sport (R-compound) tires.

This last weekend at a DE at WSIR (always referred to as a high HP track) proved the same point...I'm passing modified 997 TT's, Z06's, RS's etc in my Cup255. People come up to me after the run session telling me how impressed they are and that my car must be really FAST. Truth of the matter, I was just driving better than them -- it had nothing to do with my car being faster.

There are plenty of faster cars than a Lotus, but I still prefer to track my Lotus over all of my previous thoroughbreds...GT3RS, F430, Challenge Stradale, 996GT2... the Lotus is much easier to drive and makes me look better than I really am.

Agreed

[GTI-Guy]

Originally Posted by ocelot27

This is a good comparo:

The Lightning Lap, 2007 - Feature/Features/Classic Cars/High Performance/Hot Lists/Reviews/Car and Driver - Car And Driver

.

Thanks for posting that, great eval work by Car & Driver ... VIR lap times are becoming the new "0-60" yardstick, and I love it

As much as my heart wants an Elise, my brain finds this hard to ignore ... the base C6 Vette equipped with the Z51 brake & handling package:

"the Z51 blazed around the course in 3:03.6, nearly six seconds quicker. That time bests those of the Audi R8 and Porsche 911 Turbo, cars that cost more than twice as much as the Z51’s base price."

[mgreenbl]

Originally Posted by FLuXeXigeS

lol most of us know that...but how about a gt3 v exige s?

or gt3rs v exige s240?

on a tight technical track or a track with long straights that favor high hp cars?


mark

[aschen]

Originally Posted by GTI-Guy

Thanks for posting that, great eval work by Car & Driver ... VIR lap times are becoming the new "0-60" yardstick, and I love it

As much as my heart wants an Elise, my brain finds this hard to ignore ... the base C6 Vette equipped with the Z51 brake & handling package:

"the Z51 blazed around the course in 3:03.6, nearly six seconds quicker. That time bests those of the Audi R8 and Porsche 911 Turbo, cars that cost more than twice as much as the Z51’s base price."

You think that is hard to ignore: How about c5 zo6 which is faster still and can be had for 22k. Corvettes are so high on the performance to price/ratio that no other cars really compare. Elise/exige only make sence if you car about more than just lap times. No other modern car is as elemental or pure but many are as fast or faste.

[FLuXeXigeS]

Originally Posted by mgreenbl

on a tight technical track or a track with long straights that favor high hp cars?


mark

on either...just wanna gauge how much faster a gt3 is over an exige on track

[robains]

Cheby's do have great bang for the buck, but their potential is limited compared to a Lotus. Like I said, 3 out of the top 10 were Cheby, BUT a few points, the price they listed is NOT a price you can get from any normal Chevy dealer -- at least I have not found one within 20K of what they listed -- maybe outside of CA I could.

I was looking at the Z06 at the time I got my lotus -- dealer markup brought the car to almost 100K -- that's crazy talk. I can get street legal kit cars for 35K less with the 500 HP chevy motor and 2400 lbs. But they are kit cars.

It'll be a cold day in hell when you can get a Vette down to 1600 lbs with 400+ HP.

But I agree, who you pass on track during HPDE type events means next to nothing.

As far as the WSIR lap time for the GT3 -- I've ran 1:25's in a race prep'd Mustang on crappy Toyo RA1's, so that 1:27 doesn't really impress me, espeically considering my race prep'd mustang was at 10.1 lbs/HP. I'm hoping a Stock GT3 on RA1' s or similar treadwear tire could do A LOT better than 1:27 at WSIR.